Netscape integration (or whither Southsoft ?)

[John Drabik]

On Fri, 09 Jul 1999 06:50:56 +0300, Cristian Secara wrote:

OK, I've cooled off a lot since responding last time.  Both Steve and
Cristian gave some good points in their response, so I thought I'd
respond again (usually, I don't engage in a wraparound on the same
point, but here goes anyway).  I also put some PMMail feature
requests at the end.

This is pretty long, so if you just want to see the feature requests,
jump to the end.  You won't hurt my feelings.

>>[...] If that is the kind of software
>>that you like, then why are you concerned about PMMail
>.
>Fast ? No. It is ridiculous slow on my 333 K6-2 CPU. I'm speaking about
>the Win version, not OS/2.  Outlook Express, the application you hate so much, is *really* faster
>when comparing to PMMail.  Fact, not opinion.

Even running on one of my older machines (486/66), PMMail is faster
than Outlook on the Pentiums (133 and 266) that I had to use OE on
for about a year.  Then again, perhaps it's the OS: the 486 is
running OS/2, the Pentiums were running NT.

>>OS/2 continues to improve,
>I still have Warp 4 on a partition and the only improvement I can see
>are new bugs introduced with every new fixpak (see the last MIDI.SYS
>problem on fixpak 11, read warpcast #122).

Bugs occur.  No argument there.  They also occur in Doze.  If you
visit some of the web sites about problems with NT, '95, '98, you'll
find there are still plenty of them in those products too.  I don't
suppose you've had to suffer through NTVDM and WOWEXEC problems under
NT, or SP4 bogosity, etc.?  I have, and it ain't no picnic.

As for OS/2 improvements, Warp Server (Aurora) was recently released,
fixpacks are still released for Warp 3 and Warp 4, there is every
reason to believe that a Warp 5 client will be release soon,
Workspace on Demand is released, and a new version is available,
etc., etc.  And at least OS/2, Linux, etc. bug fixes are free; Doze
'98 is little more than a collection of bug fixes for '95, and you
had to pay about 90 bucks to get it.  You have my sympathy.  M$ has
your money.  What does that leave you with?

>The improvement was so great that I am no more able to use few DOS apps
>since fixpak 6 or 7 (DOS apps that uses .WAVs).

Works here, on multiple machines.  Setup problems at your end? 
Perhaps comparing the changed CONFIG.SYS settings, compared to your
working setup, would help.

>>You're here on the PMMail list and *seriously* comparing Outlook to
>>PMMail? Get lost.
>Seems you never [seriously] used (or evaluated) Outlook Express.

Incorrect.  We were required to use it at one "MS-only" site, for
about a year.  It's pretty lame.  It also doesn't get along well with
other software packages, and is an open door to viruses (Melissa,
Worm, etc., all work through Outlook).  I notice you didn't address
that point.  The integration of Office/Word/Excel with OE might be
nice for computer illiterates, but the price is security of your
private information.  I'll take the extra 2 seconds to attach a file,
thanks.

>Like it or not, it *is* a good mail client and it's free, ready-to-use.

No argument on the "free" (well, it does come at the cost of your
soul  ;-)  or ready to use part, but strong argument about it as a
"good" mail client.  To me, the measure of goodness is: adherence to
standards (OE grade : F), security (grade : F), stability (grade :
D), openness (grade : F), flexibility (grade : B), and integration
(grade : A (not surprising, from a monopoly)).  I agree with Steve
that OE handles IMAP; I personally don't need or want IMAP, but would
support the addition of IMAP in PMMail (i.e., I'll send them more
money, with or without IMAP support).

>How about a comparison between Outlook Express and Ultimail Lite ?

You have a point there.  Ultimail is, perhaps, the ultimate worst
mail client around.  Your claim about it being unusable and difficult
to setup is correct; OS/2 users have complained about UL for years. 
But there is a bright side: when IBM put such a piece of junk in the
freebie package, SouthSoft had an open door to provide a better
package, which they have done admirably.  It takes a brave soul to
attempt to do the same on Doze; if you succeed, M$ will just bury you
anyway, and if you fail, well - you fail.  In other words, going
after freebie apps on a monopoly platform is a real problem.  How
many hundreds of companies have folded trying to do the same? 
Compression software companies, setup and repair utility companies,
languages (compilers, etc.) companies, and many more.  Very curious,
because if you believe that Doze is such a wonderful, open, and
growing market, then why have so many companies failed to compete
only when M$ got into their same market?  In my opinion, it is clear
sign of monopoly interference (and DOJ appears to agree).  From a
conversation I had with an M$ employee, it even appears that M$ will
soon attempt to shutdown the parking lot service software companies
(software used to track stalls in large commercial and
apartment/hotel lots).  Those companies, for whatever reason, got
into Doze and M$ tools; now M$ will kill them.  As the saying goes,
"If you sleep with elephants, you shouldn't be surprised if they roll
over on you in the night".

> Try installing OS/2 from scratch and 5 minutes after install check for your
>mail. Can you ? I personally cannot. Must use (buy) InJoy. Must use
>Netscape or use (buy) PMMail.

Frankly, I haven't had any problems (but I know how a computer
works).  I was able to use trial versions of several packages, and
settled on InJoy and PMMail.  And as painful as it was, DOIP "did"
work.  On the other hand, I know many, many Doze users who have had
significant trouble with their e-mail and other services.  Why do
they put up with it?  Because M$ controls the distribution channels,
and they can't find an alternative.  PMMail has a long way to go
before it gets on store shelves.  I hope they can hold life-and-limb
together long enough to get there.  Otherwise, they will have
invested a lot of money chasing the Doze market, only to watch it
kill their OS/2, Linux, or other products too.  I wish I could say
I'd never seen this happen before, but it has.

>Both OE and PMMail have some bugs.
>Both OE and PMMail have some limitations.
>The point is one must know what best fit his wishes. This, however, is
>a dificult task, because it is *very* time consuming.
>How many of this list have ever tried more than one other mail client,
>then saying 'hm, Pegasus is ..., Eudora is ..., The Bat is ..., PMMail
>is ..., Outlook Express is ..., Outlook (MS Office) is ..., Netscape is
>.., conclusion - the best I found was PMMail' ?

I agree with you completely, but the average computer user has been
rendered illiterate by a monopoly, and that same monopoly has closed
the doors to some good, competing products.  Some (not all) of the
packages I've used: Ulti-mail (ugh), Eudora (ugh, ugh), Pine (ugh,
ugh, ugh), JStreet, Wise (boo, hiss), DECmail (more boos and hisses),
PMMail (why do you think I'm here), and several proprietary systems
on mainframes to micros.  NOT A SINGLE ONE IS PERFECT.  PMMail is
close, and Emerald has some real potential (as a replacement for
JStreet, it is great).  Even PMMail has problems though - I never
could get 1.9x to run properly, and still use 1.5 despite the
occasional (once every year or so) blowout that requires a re-index.

>>(which, curiously, appears to be copied from OS/2 - so what does that
>>tell you about Microsoft's ability to engineer a product).
>OS/2 interface design was copied from Mac. So what ?

Not even close; I use a Mac on occasion, and not only is the
interface different, but OS/2 is still the only OS with an
object-oriented interface (Workplace Shell), a defined API to control
it (SOM/DSOM), and a guaranteed language to support it (REXX,
although many others can be used).  M$ does not have a "guaranteed to
be there" scripting language for Doze (VB doesn't count - it isn't
built in and accessible by any user).

If you meant to say that Mac copied their interface from PARC, or
that OS/2 was influenced by PARC or Mac, I would agree, however  ;-) 
But then, so was Doze and NT - and look how poor a job they did.  You
can't even format a floppy from "My Computer", and then do anything
else in My Computer until it is finished (slowly).  How lame is THAT?

>===
>Well if Qualcomm *does* decide to kill Eudora, make sure to let the
>world know about PMMail :)......
>===

Perhaps they should let the world know about PMMail even if they
don't kill Eudora.  Or better yet, maybe they should fix Eudora.  Now
there's a package with all the grace and polish of a pig on stilts. 
I would unfortunately have to agree that OE is better than Eudora. 
But that's not much different from being the best bobsledder in
Panama  ;-)

Sorry about the earlier rant.  Thanks for the responses.  Now for a
few things I'd like to see in PMMail:

1) If you select a group of unread messages in Inbox, and throw them
in the Trash folder, automatically flag them as "read".
2) A switch to exclude the full header info when forwarding a message
(I always end up having to select it and delete it - what a pain).
3) Better filtering
4) A companion program that monitors your mail account and blinks or
beeps when new mail arrives (available on Doze, and as third-party
addons for OS/2, etc.)
5) Support for Linux (if I move off of OS/2, it will be to Linux)

John