,

, , , ,
  , , , ,
  , , 
, 
, 
, 
, 
,
  , , , , ,
  <head>, <body>, <blockquote>, <code>, <kbd>,
  <var>, <samp>, <tt>, <br>, <hr>, <a>, a <href>,
  <p>, <ul>, <ol>, <li>, <menu>, <dl>, <dt>, <dd>,
  <base href> 

If the standard said the above was the (entire) set of tags 
supported, then that would go a long way toward fixing
many of the problems, since most of the difficult stuff from
HTML has been left out, unfortunately the standard DOES NOT
say that!

Sadly, you can't tell you email program what tags to use or not
to use, and a lot of the WGs advice contradicts advice for good 
HTML, (like you *should* use style-sheets)!

Oh shit, another flame war!

Simon

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 17:47:33 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:47:33 -0800
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003271622.SAA12420@firewall.selseg.com>
References: <200003271622.SAA12420@firewall.selseg.com>
Message-ID: <5366.000327@rpglink.com>

Monday, March 27, 2000, 8:21:29 AM, xavier wrote:
> Most (if not all) mail clients used on the industry, at least here in Spain,
> allow HTML mail. Do you agree with me that just a few people use PMMail or
> any other mail client that does not work with HTML messages?

    No.  Considering the places I've worked and the applications we've used, I
do not see that as the case.  We've always had access to PDF.

> is a bad filter: it breaks the immediacy of an email.

    Doesn't seem that way for me.  I see a link, I click on it, I'm there.

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 17:48:51 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:48:51 -0800
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003271630.TAA02191@ns.izexim.ro>
References: <200003271630.TAA02191@ns.izexim.ro>
Message-ID: <2367.000327@rpglink.com>

Monday, March 27, 2000, 8:20:18 AM, Cristian wrote:
> Bullets ? :)

    As I said before, there is no formatting that cannot be in ASCII that can
be in HTML.  Including:

    * _underlines_
    * *BOLD*
    * /italics/
    * and, if I'm not mistaken, is this not a bulleted list?

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 17:49:13 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:49:13 -0800
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <16768.000327@caballe.com>
References: <16768.000327@caballe.com>
Message-ID: <15367.000327@rpglink.com>

Monday, March 27, 2000, 8:26:51 AM, Xavier wrote:
> Background music? :)

    That ain't formatting.  :P

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 17:51:00 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:51:00 -0800
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003271642.TAA02203@ns.izexim.ro>
References: <200003271642.TAA02203@ns.izexim.ro>
Message-ID: <13368.000327@rpglink.com>

Monday, March 27, 2000, 8:31:58 AM, Cristian wrote:
> Knowing that, I generally tend to avoid sending www links to people I
> have no idea if they can handle it.

    Right.  So let's look at all the options presented:

Send a link:  Person might not have access to www.
Send HTML:  Person might not have HTML devolved client.
Send PDF:  Might not have PDF reader.
Send document:  Might not have word processor.

    What do they all have?  ASCII.

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 18:18:20 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Simon Bowring)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:18:20 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003271609.IAA18861@mailgate.Cadence.COM>
Message-ID: <200003271618.RAA24905@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>

>but what if they can't work out how to click on it?
Made me laugh, anyway :)

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 18:22:42 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Trevor Smith)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:22:42 -0400 (AST)
Subject: Re[4]: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003271644.IAA23512@mailgate.Cadence.COM>
Message-ID: <200003271723.NAA22705@jupiter.accesscable.net>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:44:52 +0100, Brian Morrison wrote:

>I have a filter that sniffs out such things and highlights them for me
>so I can warm up the Bren gun >:|

Hmmm... Maybe I should whip up and post a filter that checks for HTML
formatted mail and sends an auto-reply to the sender telling him/her
that we don't like it. :-)

-- 
 Trevor Smith          |          trevor@haligonian.com
 PGP public key available at: www.haligonian.com/trevor

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= A68C C4EC C163 5C0A 6CFA  671F 05D4 0B30 318B AFD6

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 18:24:43 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Trevor Smith)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:24:43 -0400 (AST)
Subject: Re[4]: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003271621.TAA02181@ns.izexim.ro>
Message-ID: <200003271725.NAA23311@jupiter.accesscable.net>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:11:27 +0300, Cristian Secara wrote:

>*I* am sure of this. I have once posted it to this list, at that time I
>had to send a message to someone in Germany, using the german language.
>In some circumstances, some characters disappears. In others, they are

Yes, in sending, those characters do get changed. This is the same
with *all* email programs. Many email servers on the Internet can not
handle 8 bit characters and 8 bit characters are required to display
umlauts, etc.

We were discussing PMMail changing messages it *receives*.

>The biggest problem is when PGP signing messages: something (PMMail or
>PGP SDK) collapses all extended characters found in text.

Yes, this is a known problem.

-- 
 Trevor Smith          |          trevor@haligonian.com
 PGP public key available at: www.haligonian.com/trevor

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= A68C C4EC C163 5C0A 6CFA  671F 05D4 0B30 318B AFD6

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 18:28:48 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Simon Bowring)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:28:48 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re[4]: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003271611.IAA19084@mailgate.Cadence.COM>
Message-ID: <200003271628.RAA25728@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>

>It also needs the OS/2 'rip out tags and display as ASCII" option.

The trouble with this feature is that I often don't realise that
some arse^H^H^H^H body has sent me a load of old wank^H^H^H^H HTML,
and so I fail to get properly irritated and offensive :)

Simon

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 18:52:25 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Cristian Secara)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:52:25 +0300
Subject: Re[4]: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003271725.NAA23311@jupiter.accesscable.net>
Message-ID: <200003271802.VAA02244@ns.izexim.ro>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:24:43 -0400 (AST), Trevor Smith wrote:

>Yes, in sending, those characters do get changed. This is the same
>with *all* email programs.

No, at that time, I tested with Outlook Express and The Bat! under same
circumstances - with those mailers the regional caracters remains
intact.
Please take note, some are *disappearing* (I cannot recall now wich,
but I will find out).

>Many email servers on the Internet can not
>handle 8 bit characters and 8 bit characters are required to display
>umlauts, etc.

The problem mentioned can be tested even with the message waiting in
the Outbox folder, there is no need to physically send the message.

Best wishes,
	Cristi

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 18:53:36 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Michael Baum)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 12:53:36 -0500
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <2367.000327@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003271745.MAA02473@email.nist.gov>

>    As I said before, there is no formatting that cannot be in ASCII that can
>be in HTML.  Including:
<satire>
The major issue is somehow accommodating the legions of old command-line fogies who, having just barely gotten used to the concept of keyboards with minuscule as well as majuscule letters, cannot reasonably be asked to deal with any format more complex than ASCII. They _will_ continue to harp about trivia like "bandwidth", never realizing that they have entered a new world where hardware and protocol improvements are making bandwidth limitless for all practical purposes; where formatting protocols are converging on widely accepted, international standards; where fusion power and fuel cells will make electricity too cheap to meter, where ....

Bother. 
</satire>
================================================================
Michael Baum <michael.baum@nist.gov>
NIST Public & Business Affairs
(301) 975-2763
================================================================

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 18:55:08 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Michael Baum)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 12:55:08 -0500
Subject: Life after PMMail
Message-ID: <200003271746.MAA04041@email.nist.gov>

>Bother. 
></satire>

Sorry. Had to run. Damn pigs landing on the roof again.

- maabaum

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 19:06:59 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Trevor Smith)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:06:59 -0400 (AST)
Subject: Re[4]: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003271802.VAA02244@ns.izexim.ro>
Message-ID: <200003271807.OAA06570@jupiter.accesscable.net>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:52:25 +0300, Cristian Secara wrote:

>The problem mentioned can be tested even with the message waiting in
>the Outbox folder, there is no need to physically send the message.

Ah, this is different.

-- 
 Trevor Smith          |          trevor@haligonian.com
 PGP public key available at: www.haligonian.com/trevor

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= A68C C4EC C163 5C0A 6CFA  671F 05D4 0B30 318B AFD6

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 19:23:10 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Ralph Cohen)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:23:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <13368.000327@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <20000327182312.OTIM13052.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@CC892959-A>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:51:00 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>    Right.  So let's look at all the options presented:
>
>Send a link:  Person might not have access to www.
>Send HTML:  Person might not have HTML devolved client.
>Send PDF:  Might not have PDF reader.
>Send document:  Might not have word processor.
>
>    What do they all have?  ASCII.

Send 'em a fax and be done with it.<g>

Ralph
rpcohen@neurotron.com

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 19:23:39 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Alexander Sarras)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:23:39 +0200 (CED)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003271107.DAA20352@mailgate.Cadence.COM>
Message-ID: <20000327182413.TMXH3543.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 11:06:52 +0100, Brian Morrison wrote:

> On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 09:52:17 +0000 (GMT), Simon Bowring wrote:
> 
> >The twats from Netscape and Microsoft don't understand this, neither 
> >will half the people respnding to this. HTML email is yet another 
> >triumph of the form-over-function brigade of ignorant tossers.
> >
> 
> Exactly! There is only one cure for people that use HTML email, it has
> two barrels, two triggers and the barrel diameter is that of a ball of
> lead weighing 1/12th of a pound.
> 
That's barbaric! Let's be a little more sophisticated....
SaS
-- 
       Dr. Alexander Sarras         |     * Trouble * IS my middle name!
  www.sarras.at     mail@sarras.at  |           The TroubleShooter
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 19:31:18 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:31:18 -0800
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <20000327182413.TMXH3543.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>
References: <20000327182413.TMXH3543.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>
Message-ID: <5438.000327@rpglink.com>

Monday, March 27, 2000, 10:23:39 AM, Alexander wrote:
> That's barbaric! Let's be a little more sophisticated....

    You're right.  A few canisters of nerve gas is certainly more efficient.
;)

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 19:34:19 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Alexander Sarras)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:34:19 +0200 (CED)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <E12ZYwD-0005b4-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <20000327183453.TNPE3543.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 07:47:57 -0500 (EST), Larry Ebbitt wrote:

> On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 09:52:17 +0000 (GMT), Simon Bowring wrote:
> 
> >Ever since this unpleasant HTML cat was let out of the bag, it has meant 
> >illinformed consumers now demand the misfeature in mailers, making the 
> >exchange of information harder for those that work according to the rules 
> >that guarrantee the internet uhm, inter-works!
> 
> I couldn't have said it better.  I don't even accept HTML e-mail and it
> annoys me terribly when I see it.  I still remember how to read without
> pictures.
> 
That's what filters and canned replies are for: trash it and send a
automated respone!
SaS
-- 
       Dr. Alexander Sarras         |     * Trouble * IS my middle name!
  www.sarras.at     mail@sarras.at  |           The TroubleShooter
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 19:39:31 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (gomez)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:39:31 +0200
Subject: Re[4]: Life after PMMail
Message-ID: <E12aO7P-0006fZ-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:11:07 +0100, Brian Morrison wrote:

>It also needs the OS/2 'rip out tags and display as ASCII" option.

oh yessssssssss...... ;)

Mauro

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 19:43:46 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (gomez)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:43:46 +0200
Subject: Life after PMMail
Message-ID: <E12aO7M-0006fK-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

> there are many people out there that don't know how to open an attached
> file!

but there are to *too many* people that open *anything* 
virus included............ ;)

Mauro

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 19:54:05 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Alexander Sarras)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:54:05 +0200 (CED)
Subject: Re[4]: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <18677.000327@caballe.com>
Message-ID: <20000327185435.TOUP3543.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:16:14 +0200, Xavier Caball=E9 wrote:

> Hello Trevor,
> 
> TS> If you receive an electronic magazine in HTML format, why must you=

> TS> "read it in PMMail"? Don't you have access to Netscape Navigator,
> TS> Internet Explorer, Opera or some other HTML program?
> 
> Because I already have it on my PMMail mailbox... And I am unable to
> forward it to another account because PMMail has already ruin it: the
> message has become unredeable --this is specially true when the HTML
> mail has extended characters, like accents. There's no option --or, at=

> least, I haven't been able to find it-- to view the message using an
> external viewer.
> 
> TS> And, by the way, PMMail/2 has a "view full message in web browser"=

> TS> option which makes reading your magazine as easy as "removing the
> TS> wrapper". You don't even have to leave the room or change your sea=
t.
> 
> Unfortunately for me, I've been force to drop OS/2 and switch to
> Windows 2000... and PMMail for Windows does not have this option.
> 
How about filters? And how does PMMail ruin your HTML message?
SaS
-- 
       Dr. Alexander Sarras         |     * Trouble * IS my middle name!=

  www.sarras.at     mail@sarras.at  |           The TroubleShooter
------------------------------------------------------------------------=

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 19:55:01 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Alexander Sarras)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:55:01 +0200 (CED)
Subject: Re[2]: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <10680.000327@caballe.com>
Message-ID: <20000327185533.TOVY3543.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:19:19 +0200, Xavier Caball=E9 wrote:

> Hello John,
> 
> JA> The whole thing sounds to me like writing a letter with cut-out le=
tters collected from newspapers.
> 
> Well, that's exactly how some HTML messages look like on PMMail... :)
> 
But isn't that the reason for using HTML for emails in the first place?
SaS
-- 
       Dr. Alexander Sarras         |     * Trouble * IS my middle name!=

  www.sarras.at     mail@sarras.at  |           The TroubleShooter
------------------------------------------------------------------------=

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 20:01:05 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Alexander Sarras)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:01:05 +0200 (CED)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <E12ZaJC-0006KW-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <20000327190153.TPGJ3543.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 00:15:44 +0900 (EST), John Angelico wrote:

> 
> And puleese don't offer the analogy of automatic vs manual transmission.
Er, what's a manual transmission, puleese ?
SaS
-- 
       Dr. Alexander Sarras         |     * Trouble * IS my middle name!
  www.sarras.at     mail@sarras.at  |           The TroubleShooter
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 20:04:59 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Alexander Sarras)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:04:59 +0200 (CED)
Subject: Re[2]: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <15742.000327@caballe.com>
Message-ID: <20000327190531.TPMX3543.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:49:07 +0200, Xavier Caball=E9 wrote:

> >> PDF is a good candidate, but Acrobat Reader is not an universal sol=
ution...
> SL>     Name me one platform that Acrobat Reader is not on.  It is a m=
uch better
> SL> choice than HTML since what it shows will be consistent.
> 
> Yes, Acrobat Reader is available in almost every platform. The problem=

> is that some people does not have it. Yes, it is quite easy to install=

> it... but, again... this is not always a good answer. It's quite
> common that the company policy does not allow employees to install the=

> software they want to.
So, how those "people" going to view HTML. Somethnig has to be installed=
 to
do that, too, on most platforms!
SaS
-- 
       Dr. Alexander Sarras         |     * Trouble * IS my middle name!=

  www.sarras.at     mail@sarras.at  |           The TroubleShooter
------------------------------------------------------------------------=

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 20:07:39 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Alexander Sarras)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:07:39 +0200 (CED)
Subject: Re[2]: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <15742.000327@caballe.com>
Message-ID: <20000327190813.TPQJ3543.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:49:07 +0200, Xavier Caball=E9 wrote:

> If your customers/your boss asks you to send an
> HTML mail because they want to send a message with pictures, links,
> bold letter and so you have two options:
> 
> * a) Quit your job
> * b) Use HTML, even if you don't like.
c) Show them what the recipient will see (i.e. prepare a couple of worst=

case scenarios, which looks exactly the opposite of what they wanted to
do). Always did the trick here (on the other hand, most guys _I_ work wi=
th
have at least rudimentary intelligence!)

SaS
-- 
       Dr. Alexander Sarras         |     * Trouble * IS my middle name!=

  www.sarras.at     mail@sarras.at  |           The TroubleShooter
------------------------------------------------------------------------=

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 20:38:06 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Dick Reeser)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:38:06 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Life after PMMail
Message-ID: <200003271939.OAA11286@mail.lynxus.com>

Come on!  Tell us what you really think.

Dick Reeser
Logan, Iowa, USA

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 09:52:17 +0000 (GMT), Simon Bowring wrote:

>Ever since this unpleasant HTML cat was let out of the bag, it has meant 
>illinformed consumers now demand the misfeature in mailers, making the 
>exchange of information harder for those that work according to the rules 
>that guarrantee the internet uhm, inter-works!

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 20:47:21 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Dick Reeser)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:47:21 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003271322.FAA00495@mailgate.Cadence.COM>
Message-ID: <200003271947.OAA12542@mail.lynxus.com>

For those who can't read a text message, or don't have 
email, I usually:

1.	write a short note on a piece of paper
2.	put the paper in an envelope
3.	seal the envelope,
4.	address the envelope
5.	paste a stamp in the upper right corner, and 
6.	consign the whole thing to the USPS.

Been doing it for 50 years and it still works.

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:22:48 +0100, Brian Morrison wrote:

>If you must correspond with them for business purposes, maybe it's time
>to ask if you have the right clients....
>
>I know this sounds elitist, but sometimes I despair over this
>planet....

Dick Reeser
Logan, Iowa, USA

"Ah, it is the fault of our science that it wants 
to explain all;  and if it explain not, then it says 
there is nothing to explain."
			-- Dr. Van Helsing

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 20:59:41 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (xavier caballe)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:59:41 +0200
Subject: Re[2]: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <20000327190813.TPQJ3543.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>
Message-ID: <200003272026.WAA03371@m1smtpsp02.wanadoo.es>

>> * a) Quit your job
>> * b) Use HTML, even if you don't like.
>c) Show them what the recipient will see (i.e. prepare a couple of worst
>case scenarios, which looks exactly the opposite of what they wanted to
>do). Always did the trick here (on the other hand, most guys _I_ work with
>have at least rudimentary intelligence!)

You're not like my manager... He will say it's my fault because I did a poor job!!! :)

Xavi
---
 My Name is Raincheck and I need a shot of Rhythm'n'Blues!!! 
 When you hear that engine drone, I'm on the road again and I'm searching for the philosophers stone

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 21:03:21 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (xavier caballe)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:03:21 +0200
Subject: Re[4]: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <20000327185435.TOUP3543.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>
Message-ID: <200003272026.WAA03379@m1smtpsp02.wanadoo.es>

>How about filters? And how does PMMail ruin your HTML message?

May I send a screenshot?

Xavi
---
 My Name is Raincheck and I need a shot of Rhythm'n'Blues!!! 
 When you hear that engine drone, I'm on the road again and I'm searching for the philosophers stone

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 21:05:13 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (xavier caballe)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:05:13 +0200
Subject: Re[2]: Life after PMMail
Message-ID: <200003272026.WAA03386@m1smtpsp02.wanadoo.es>

>> JA> The whole thing sounds to me like writing a letter with cut-out letters collected from newspapers.
>> Well, that's exactly how some HTML messages look like on PMMail... :)
>But isn't that the reason for using HTML for emails in the first place?

No, this thread started because I asked for a mail client as good as PMMail but with good HTML support (becuase HTML 
support in PMMail is horrible!), just because I need this feature. Of course, this thread has derivated to a big off-topic 
discussion about HTML yes/not (something like Windows or OS/2 threads about two years ago).

So, the result is... a lot of useless mail traffic, and just a couple of useful messages... :)

Xavi
---
 My Name is Raincheck and I need a shot of Rhythm'n'Blues!!! 
 When you hear that engine drone, I'm on the road again and I'm searching for the philosophers stone

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 21:47:14 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Simon Bowring)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:47:14 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003271745.MAA02473@email.nist.gov>
Message-ID: <200003271947.UAA05310@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>

><satire>
>The major issue is somehow accommodating the legions of old command-line fogies who, having just barely gotten used to the concept of 
keyboards with minuscule as well as majuscule letters, cannot reasonably be asked to deal with any format more complex than ASCII. They 
_will_ continue to harp about trivia like "bandwidth", never realizing that they have entered a new world where hardware and protocol 
improvements are making bandwidth limitless for all practical purposes; where formatting protocols are converging on widely accepted, 
international standards; where fusion power and fuel cells will make electricity too cheap to meter, where ....
>
>Bother. 
></satire>

This quote is way, way out of date, bandwidth is *not* the problem with 
HTML email AGREED STANDARDS by which such mailers should work are the
problem (there aren't any!!!!!).

Sorry if I misunderstood the humour in your message, but someone from NIST 
(National Institute of Standards and Technology) might be expected to know 
the value of standards!!

Nice 140 character lines BTW!

Simon

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 22:18:49 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Larry Ebbitt)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:18:49 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003271322.FAA00495@mailgate.Cadence.COM>
Message-ID: <E12ZguZ-0002Xm-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:22:48 +0100, Brian Morrison wrote:

>All one can do is correspond only with those that behave in a civilised
>fashion. If they don't do what you like, then ignore them.
>
>If you must correspond with them for business purposes, maybe it's time
>to ask if you have the right clients....

I agree wholeheartedly.  I do resent the waste of my time, my most precious
commodity.

Larry  -  Atlanta / OS/2

DISCLAIMER:  In the case that I contradicted something else I said 
in this or some other post, the verbiage that is correct will override 
the incorrect verbiage and the incorrect verbiage will be void!

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 22:26:55 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Jonathan B. Bayer)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:26:55 -0500
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <E12ZguZ-0002Xm-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003272138.QAA31665@bayerfamily.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:18:49 -0500 (EST), Larry Ebbitt wrote:

>On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:22:48 +0100, Brian Morrison wrote:
>
>>All one can do is correspond only with those that behave in a civilised
>>fashion. If they don't do what you like, then ignore them.
>>
>>If you must correspond with them for business purposes, maybe it's time
>>to ask if you have the right clients....
>
>I agree wholeheartedly.  I do resent the waste of my time, my most precious
>commodity.

OTOH, it's not a waste of your time if your customers are paying you. 
Consider it as a necessary part of the job.

JBB
- --
ICQ # 44910403
Power Listviewer URL:   http://www.bigfoot.com/~PowerListviewer
PMMail Archiver URL:    http://www.bigfoot.com/~Jonathan_Bayer/archiver

For PGP Public key block/Fingerprint send the following message to me as the Subject:
        Send PGP Signature

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 (C) 1997-1999 Network Associates, Inc. and its affiliated companies.

iQCVAwUBON/SHY1F3x2FJJilAQHiUQQAurHRgXE+gQY+6Wnrixu/AAfSsWBMGv+I
vYcjVk0xVvQFdiSx16Sb3YKE1fUH8J9bysCd9rJYn9QVtb3n/etbtz8342n4Em1u
L6FTfAMASBHwtPQ87htnOxojo0A979KIyuPOhPcEDNhbtxGCn43fMIajIFOgeL7p
mykhvUnTb90=
=IGw4
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 22:42:11 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Simon Bowring)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:42:11 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re[2]: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <15742.000327@caballe.com>
Message-ID: <200003272042.VAA08460@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>

>If your customers/your boss asks you to send an
>HTML mail because they want to send a message with pictures, links,
>bold letter and so you have two options:
>
>* a) Quit your job
>* b) Use HTML, even if you don't like.

Or,

1. Use an editor to make the HTML page (one of the many WYSIWYG HTML 
   editors will do if you must produce aweful crap).
2. Attach the HTML file to your email and send it

The receiver should then extract the attachment and view it in a 
suitable viewer (which should be as simple as double clicking
on the attachment for windows weanies).  

No standards broken, HTML mail sent, at no point did the mailer have 
to become a web browser (which is the root problem)!

This keeps the lovely, finished largely static email standards 
intact, no-one has to buy a new email program, no-one has to upgrade 
the email program to HTML 17.93 every other fortnight (should be 
be using XML, DHTML, or MS$BollocksyMLduJour this week?), and allows 
the lowliest email program to handle the attachment in a sensible 
way.

And as far as background music goes (which someone mentioned in jest),
you generally need to use javascript in your web page (i.e write
a program) to differentiate between NetScape and IE in order to make 
background music work in the different brands of browser (which both
use embrace-and-extend(TM) to implement this non-standard feature
differently).  This illustrates a couple of the many minor problems 
with HTML as a "standard" for email text markup.  

If you've used four or five different company's web browsers, you
will probably have been amazed at the differences they show in the 
same web pages (not just because of bugs, but because of differing but
perfectly legal and intended interpretations of the deliberately 
"loose" spec).  If you are a professional� web page designer then you 
will also know how very difficult it is to design pages that look the 
same on all browsers (unless you miss out all pictures, colours, fonts, 
frames, HTML 4, stylesheets, backgrounds etc).  

Since many web designers test only on NS or IE, they only see the tip of 
the iceberg of incompatibilities (most web designers don't even seem to 
check their pages for valid syntactically correct HTML).

The point is that people think HTML "will do" for "rich-text" - *it
won't*, a different sort of standard is required (could be an extreme
subset of HTML, but such a subset has not beed defined or agreed!).

Simon
--
�By professional web page designer, I don't mean someone who makes 
their living running Frontpage and pressing a button to publish, I mean
someone who understands the issues and constraints of the medium to
an expert/professional standard.

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 22:42:25 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Larry Ebbitt)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:42:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003271454.OAA21375@magpage.com>
Message-ID: <E12ZhHI-0002lU-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:56:30 +0000, Jim Nuytens wrote:

>It already has. For some time. I can't tell you the number of times
>I've screamed at idiots who post on the newsgroups with HTML turned on.

It's surprising that anyone that ignorant could figure out
how to subscribe.

Larry  -  Atlanta / OS/2

DISCLAIMER:  In the case that I contradicted something else I said 
in this or some other post, the verbiage that is correct will override 
the incorrect verbiage and the incorrect verbiage will be void!

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 22:47:35 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:47:35 -0800
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <E12ZhHI-0002lU-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
References: <E12ZhHI-0002lU-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <7574.000327@rpglink.com>

Monday, March 27, 2000, 1:42:25 PM, Larry wrote:
> It's surprising that anyone that ignorant could figure out
> how to subscribe.

    You're forgetting places like Deja, RemarQ, AOL and WebTV allow newsgroup
access.  Think about it.  ;)

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 22:49:29 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:49:29 -0800
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003272026.WAA03386@m1smtpsp02.wanadoo.es>
References: <200003272026.WAA03386@m1smtpsp02.wanadoo.es>
Message-ID: <15576.000327@rpglink.com>

Monday, March 27, 2000, 12:05:13 PM, xavier wrote:
> So, the result is... a lot of useless mail traffic, and just a couple of
> useful messages... :)

    Yeah, but at least you know the list is working now.  I certainly do.

    <type, type, type>  OK, why is my ssh session lagging so much!?  <tap,
tap, tap>

Exim statistics from 2000-03-27 07:35:22 to 2000-03-27 13:44:10

Grand total summary
-------------------
                                                       At least one address
  TOTAL               Volume    Messages    Hosts      Delayed       Failed
  Received            1220KB         259       36      48 18.5%     55 21.2%
  Delivered             19MB        8690      257

    Oh...  Since 7:30 today it's pumped out 8690 messages.  That might explain
it.  Yesterday was busy at...

Exim statistics from 2000-03-26 07:35:17 to 2000-03-27 07:33:42

Grand total summary
-------------------
                                                       At least one address
  TOTAL               Volume    Messages    Hosts      Delayed       Failed
  Received            1530KB         434       45      25  5.8%     35  8.1%
  Delivered             15MB        5832      259

   ...5832 messages and we've surpassed that in 6 hours.  ;)

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 22:52:01 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Simon Bowring)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:52:01 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re[2]: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003272026.WAA03386@m1smtpsp02.wanadoo.es>
Message-ID: <200003272052.VAA09033@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>

>No, this thread started because I asked for a mail client as good as PMMail 
>but with good HTML support.

My answers are perfectly serious, if a little over the top:

You cannot easily measure what "good HTML support" means in an email 
program,  you can only see how closely two email programs render the
same set of HTML - no standard governs what the email will look
like. In practice, this means you have to use the same program 
as they do.

As I previously said, "the only way to ensure that your clients see 
the same as you intended when using HTML-ised mail, is to use 
the exact same email program and version as they use".

Simon

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 22:52:02 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Larry Ebbitt)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:52:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re[2]: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <16768.000327@caballe.com>
Message-ID: <E12ZhQc-0002xv-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:26:51 +0200, Xavier Caball=82 wrote:

>Background music? :)

Maybe a little attachment that squirts toilet water?  Geez!

Larry  -  Atlanta / OS/2

DISCLAIMER:  In the case that I contradicted something else I said 
in this or some other post, the verbiage that is correct will override 
the incorrect verbiage and the incorrect verbiage will be void!

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 22:55:24 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Larry Ebbitt)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:55:24 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re[4]: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003271723.NAA22705@jupiter.accesscable.net>
Message-ID: <E12ZhTs-00032D-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:22:42 -0400 (AST), Trevor Smith wrote:

>Hmmm... Maybe I should whip up and post a filter that checks for HTML
>formatted mail and sends an auto-reply to the sender telling him/her
>that we don't like it. :-)

That would please me very much.  Pretty please.

Larry  -  Atlanta / OS/2

DISCLAIMER:  In the case that I contradicted something else I said 
in this or some other post, the verbiage that is correct will override 
the incorrect verbiage and the incorrect verbiage will be void!

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 22:58:27 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Larry Ebbitt)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:58:27 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003271745.MAA02473@email.nist.gov>
Message-ID: <E12ZhWq-00036x-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 12:53:36 -0500, Michael Baum wrote:

>where hardware and protocol improvements are making bandwidth limitless for all practical purposes; where 
formatting protocols are converging on widely accepted, international standards; where fusion power and fuel cells 
will make electricity too cheap to meter, where ....

Excuse me, I was distracted by something pinkish, grunting as
it flew past my window.

If one can't read and must have pictures, the web is the place.
It is already destroyed.

Larry  -  Atlanta / OS/2

DISCLAIMER:  In the case that I contradicted something else I said 
in this or some other post, the verbiage that is correct will override 
the incorrect verbiage and the incorrect verbiage will be void!

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 23:03:22 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Larry Ebbitt)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:03:22 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <20000327182413.TMXH3543.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>
Message-ID: <E12Zhbb-0003BB-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:23:39 +0200 (CED), Alexander Sarras wrote:

>That's barbaric! Let's be a little more sophisticated....

Oh, all right!  A .223.

Larry  -  Atlanta / OS/2

DISCLAIMER:  In the case that I contradicted something else I said 
in this or some other post, the verbiage that is correct will override 
the incorrect verbiage and the incorrect verbiage will be void!

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 23:16:21 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Jonas T Larsson)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 00:16:21 +0200
Subject: Re[4]: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003271554.LAA25375@jupiter.accesscable.net>
Message-ID: <0FS3001CAPU3XL@piraten.student.lu.se>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 11:54:21 -0400 (AST), Trevor Smith wrote:

>On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:32:15 +0200, xavier caballe wrote:
>
>>Unfortunately it does... specially when the message has some 'extended=
 characters' (i.e., accentued characters). It's a bug 
>>present in all Windows PMMail versions. I reported it to both SouthSof=
t and Blueprint Software Works, but it has been never 
>>fixed, although finally it has been confirmed. 
>
>Are you 100% certain of this? I don't do the Windows tech support and
>rarely use the Windows version of PMMail, but I am amazed to hear
>this. Have you actually found the corresponding message on your hard
>drive and confirmed that PMMail has "modified" the text in some way
>after it left the POP server?
>
>>The problem is that under some circumstances, that are quite usual for=
 people that receives messages in other languages 
>>different to English, the words are joined and some characters are del=
eted. The result is the text is broken.

There are more problems connected to this in PMmail. Quite often the
high ascii (extended chars, >127) is displayed wrong. ie it can be
displayed correctly in the preview pane but gets screwed up when
viewing it by double clicking. Chars gets major screwed up when either
escaping to an external editor or paste quoted. Have mailed PMmail
support atleast twice but still no answer. I am very reluctant to
change client but IMO it all depends on what timelines that comes out
(hopefully soon) since this is getting a bigger and bigger problem for
me. Solutions to escape to external programs (NS, IE) does to appeal to
me very much since this is just text, no pics or anything else. The
problem is in many ways the same with plain/text and text/html. I am
evaluating TB! at work but I would rather pick PMmail over it any day
if it could correctly display my msgs. For html in PMmail2000 would it
not be possible to "tap" into IE? The solution is of course far from
perfect in many ways but as an option it would at least correctly
display the html.

	// Yours Jonas
-- 
Jonas Larsson       ((     "Var liten r=E4ka
Tornav=E4gen 19:131   ))         ropa och kv=E4ka
223 63 Lund         ((             v=E5ren =E4r h=E4r"
+46 46 139924       ))                          // Ok=E4nd

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 23:20:34 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Larry Ebbitt)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:20:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <20000327190153.TPGJ3543.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>
Message-ID: <E12ZhsD-0003MP-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:01:05 +0200 (CED), Alexander Sarras wrote:

>Er, what's a manual transmission, puleese ?

It's an arcane torture device, used to make a bad
commute much worse.

Larry  -  Atlanta / OS/2

DISCLAIMER:  In the case that I contradicted something else I said 
in this or some other post, the verbiage that is correct will override 
the incorrect verbiage and the incorrect verbiage will be void!

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 23:25:20 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Larry Ebbitt)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:25:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re[2]: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003272026.WAA03371@m1smtpsp02.wanadoo.es>
Message-ID: <E12Zhwr-0003Ql-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:59:41 +0200, xavier caballe wrote:

>You're not like my manager... He will say it's my fault because I did a poor job!!! :)

If it's possible, you should take a good look at option a.

Larry  -  Atlanta / OS/2

DISCLAIMER:  In the case that I contradicted something else I said 
in this or some other post, the verbiage that is correct will override 
the incorrect verbiage and the incorrect verbiage will be void!

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 23:25:54 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Marvin)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:25:54 -0500
Subject: Re[2]: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003272026.WAA03386@m1smtpsp02.wanadoo.es>
Message-ID: <E12ZhxU-00037T-00@smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:05:13 +0200, xavier caballe wrote:

>>> JA> The whole thing sounds to me like writing a letter with cut-out letters collected from newspapers.
>>> Well, that's exactly how some HTML messages look like on PMMail... :)
>>But isn't that the reason for using HTML for emails in the first place?
>
>No, this thread started because I asked for a mail client as good as PMMail but with good HTML support (becuase HTML 
>support in PMMail is horrible!), just because I need this feature. Of course, this thread has derivated to a big off-topic 
>discussion about HTML yes/not (something like Windows or OS/2 threads about two years ago).
>
>So, the result is... a lot of useless mail traffic, and just a couple of useful messages... :)
>

Just to add my two cents. If I remember correctly the HTML/RichText support in the windows
version of PMMail is NOT PMMail code, it is the behavior of the RichEdit common control in
the win subsystem. This was espoused by BoBnIke at the time the first win client came out
to explain why the win version got html support and the OS/2 version did not.

If this is true, and I am fairly sure it is because messages with html that I stream into
one of my applications RichEdit controls look identical to the internal PMMail version,
then the blame for how it is handled and how it looks belongs with a certain company
that is currently involved with the US Justice Department.

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 23:29:39 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:29:39 -0800
Subject: (OT) Manual Transmissions (was: Life after PMMail)
In-Reply-To: <E12ZhsD-0003MP-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
References: <E12ZhsD-0003MP-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <10603.000327@rpglink.com>

Monday, March 27, 2000, 2:20:34 PM, Larry wrote:
>>Er, what's a manual transmission, puleese ?

> It's an arcane torture device, used to make a bad commute much worse.

    Speak for yourself.  I know my commute[1] is made much better by my car[1]
and you can rip my stick shift from my cold, dead hands!  :)

[1] I live and work in the LA area where the freeways are busy even at 2am.

[2] '97 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSt
    <http://gong.snu.ac.kr/~funcity/eclipse/model/cp-gst11.jpg>

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 23:31:42 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Larry Ebbitt)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:31:42 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003272138.QAA31665@bayerfamily.net>
Message-ID: <E12Zi31-0003d4-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:26:55 -0500, Jonathan B. Bayer wrote:

>OTOH, it's not a waste of your time if your customers are paying you. 
>Consider it as a necessary part of the job.

I would not have offered my customers such a foolish service.

Larry  -  Atlanta / OS/2

DISCLAIMER:  In the case that I contradicted something else I said 
in this or some other post, the verbiage that is correct will override 
the incorrect verbiage and the incorrect verbiage will be void!

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 23:34:04 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Larry Ebbitt)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:34:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <7574.000327@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <E12Zi5K-0003h4-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:47:35 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>You're forgetting places like Deja, RemarQ, AOL and WebTV allow newsgroup
>access.  Think about it.  ;)

They still have to find those places.  These folks would have trouble with 
the proverbial urine-filled, but well documented boot.

Larry  -  Atlanta / OS/2

DISCLAIMER:  In the case that I contradicted something else I said 
in this or some other post, the verbiage that is correct will override 
the incorrect verbiage and the incorrect verbiage will be void!

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 23:38:15 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Massimo)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 23:38:15 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Re[2]: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003272026.WAA03386@m1smtpsp02.wanadoo.es>
Message-ID: <200003272255.AAA26730@linux.quasarbbs.it>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:05:13 +0200, xavier caballe wrote:

>So, the result is... a lot of useless mail traffic, and just a couple of useful messages... :)

I work both at an ISP and a small business, i own about 6 mail recipients...

In about 2 years i saw jsut a couple of html mails...

One of them was porno spam email :->

Bye.

 --  Massimo Sangriso  [IBM Certified System Expert OS/2 Warp 4 Engineer]  --
 ------  Indirizzo Email:  maxwarp@sp.itline.it    Point Fidonet:  2:332/807.6  -------
[System administator & webmaster @ QuasarBBS http://www.quasarbbs.com ]

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 23:44:54 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:44:54 -0800
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <E12Zi5K-0003h4-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
References: <E12Zi5K-0003h4-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <12614.000327@rpglink.com>

Monday, March 27, 2000, 2:34:04 PM, Larry wrote:
> They still have to find those places.  These folks would have trouble with
> the proverbial urine-filled, but well documented boot.

    You'd be surprised at the number of webtv people that go wondering through
the newsgroups I frequent.  :P

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 23:51:31 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Larry Ebbitt)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:51:31 -0500 (EST)
Subject: (OT) Manual Transmissions (was: Life after PMMail)
In-Reply-To: <10603.000327@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <E12ZiMB-0003qr-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:29:39 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>Speak for yourself.  I know my commute[1] is made much better by my car[1]
>and you can rip my stick shift from my cold, dead hands!  :)

Whoops!  If it gives you pleasure to row your car around in stop and go
traffic, far be it from me to deprive you <g>  Gotta keep that left thigh
pumped.  OTOH, if you are one of those who delays at stop lights because
they are in neutral and then makes me brake as they pause to shift, I'd
be happy to do the ripping.  I get the feeling you are not one of the latter. 

>[1] I live and work in the LA area where the freeways are busy even at 2am. 
 I live and work in metro Atlanta, ditto.  When I commute, it's stop and go.

>[2] '97 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSt
>    <http://gong.snu.ac.kr/~funcity/eclipse/model/cp-gst11.jpg>

Very nice car.  Me, '97 F-150 4.6L 3.55 limited-slip.

I have a strange feeling we're a little too much off-topic <g>.

Larry  -  Atlanta / OS/2

DISCLAIMER:  In the case that I contradicted something else I said 
in this or some other post, the verbiage that is correct will override 
the incorrect verbiage and the incorrect verbiage will be void!

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 23:54:20 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Larry Ebbitt)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:54:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <12614.000327@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <E12ZiOv-0003uo-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:44:54 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>    You'd be surprised at the number of webtv people that go wondering through
>the newsgroups I frequent.  :P

Amazing!  I wonder how the found their way.  I mostly visit comp.os groups and
I guess I escape this.

Larry  -  Atlanta / OS/2

DISCLAIMER:  In the case that I contradicted something else I said 
in this or some other post, the verbiage that is correct will override 
the incorrect verbiage and the incorrect verbiage will be void!

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 23:58:30 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Dan Casey)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:58:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: E-Mail as HTML (was Re: Life after PMMail)
In-Reply-To: <E12ZZDv-0005jL-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <20000327225831.UHSY4993.mail.rdc1.il.home.com@abraxas3>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:06:26 -0500 (EST), Larry Ebbitt wrote:

>On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:58:09 +0100, David Gaskill wrote:
>
>>I have already come 
>>across people that don't know that there is any other kind of e-mail ... 
>
>I'm sick of all this catering to the incompetent.  The web has become all
>but useless.  Now the crap is getting into e-mail.  I suppose the news groups
>are next.

Well .. I've already seen HTML in USENET News Groups ... I normally
just delete it.

What users need is education .... but they, for the most part, aren't
likely to get it. Thanks to Windows pre-loads and complete system
setups, complete idiots can now turn a computer for the 1st time, and
send and receive e-mail. And these, for the most part, are users that
have no idea what an e-mail client is, much less the Standards, Rules
and "Netiquette" that those of us who have been using the Internet
have come to learn.

I'd be willing to bet even money that if all these systems with Win9x
(or2K) pre-loaded, had the "E-Mail as HTML" set "OFF" by default,
they'd never figure out how to turn it on ... much less what it
means.

These same users, btw, probably have no idea that there exists a huge
Online Community and World ... outside of e-mail and the WWW.

And, thanks to all of these Online Services (AOL and CIS to name 2)
that have their own, proprietary "Chat" systems, (Buddy Lists, Forums
.. call them what you will), none of these "users" have ever heard of
IRC or Usenet Newsgroups. A common question I get asked by co-workers
is "My friend uses AOL ... and I don't ... can I chat with her using
her Buddy List thingy?"

Yes, you can ... tell her to get an IRC Client :-)

E-Mail (and usenet news) was designed to be transmitted in plain
ASCII Text. It's quick, functional, and most aof all, it's
completeley Cross-Platform compatible and non-proprietary.

I'll admit that I do have a few friends who don't (yet) know what to
do with a URL Link that I send them in an e-mail (yes, even the
concept of cut-n-paste is strange to them). It's not that hard to add
a <a href...> tag in the text of the e-mail for them (as I know they
use Netscape to retrieve their e-mail).

Dan Casey
President, VOICE   http://www.os2voice.org
http://members.iquest.net/~dcasey
Charter Associate Member: Team SETI   http://www.seti-inst.edu/
Warpstock 98 in Chicago: I was there!
Warpstock 99 in Atlanta: I was there!
Warpstock 2000 in Philadelphia: See you There!
To request my PGP Public Key, send e-mail with "Req PGP Key" as Subject Line
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBON/nljxaIWxsBzRxAQEY+gQAhB0N4d/2yQ69KydV3y/0CXNb6qOXUjz4
Cef9hAvSHXYpTnrlg/rWbIp6QNH9iyGs8UXhfse72MJW6EgTTLbZ+O+VDgY6iLD9
4eJlE0QD0u5//LNSuGj0FA+z3ACR9wcjmaNO2avhZ7OFTlBjuKHgvAcO8D5BScoq
olWKq9PE/YQ=
=w7gI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Mon Mar 27 23:59:07 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:59:07 -0800
Subject: (OT) Manual Transmissions (was: Life after PMMail)
In-Reply-To: <E12ZiMB-0003qr-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
References: <E12ZiMB-0003qr-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <2624.000327@rpglink.com>

Monday, March 27, 2000, 2:51:31 PM, Larry wrote:
> Whoops!  If it gives you pleasure to row your car around in stop and go
> traffic, far be it from me to deprive you <g>

    Hey, that's what finding new routes through residential areas is all
about.  Lights, traffic, what're those?  Sure it takes me an extra 2-3 miles
to get to work, but it's lovely country.  :)

> OTOH, if you are one of those who delays at stop lights because they are in
> neutral and then makes me brake as they pause to shift, I'd be happy to do
> the ripping. I get the feeling you are not one of the latter.

    *laugh*  Noooooo.  I'm more the type that is glad that he revs his engine
too high and spins out when trying to take off from a start.  Damned cop
behind me couldn't get me on speeding then.  :)

>>[2] '97 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSt
>>    <http://gong.snu.ac.kr/~funcity/eclipse/model/cp-gst11.jpg>

> Very nice car.  Me, '97 F-150 4.6L 3.55 limited-slip.

    Heh.  To think I am looking at the new 2k Celica as a replacement.  Feh.
Need to pay this one off.

> I have a strange feeling we're a little too much off-topic <g>.

    Nah, this list has seen worse.  :)

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 00:25:24 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Ralph Cohen)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:25:24 -0500 (EST)
Subject: PMMail 3000 - The Answer
In-Reply-To: <200003272026.WAA03386@m1smtpsp02.wanadoo.es>
Message-ID: <20000327232529.UNUD13052.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@CC892959-A>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:05:13 +0200, xavier caballe wrote:

>No, this thread started because I asked for a mail client as good as PMMail but with good HTML support (becuase HTML 

You could wait for PMMail 3000.  It's listed on the elusive PMMail
timeline from BSW and will properly handle HTML mail and Y3K
problems.<g>

Ralph Cohen

rpcohen@neurotron.com

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 00:43:29 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Bernhard E Krevet)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 15:43:29 -0800
Subject: Accented characters in PMMAIL (windows) vs External Editor
In-Reply-To: <200003221126.LAA16611@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200003272347.PAA03232@sjpc.sjpc.org>

When I create or receive email with accented characters (umlaute etc) an=
d
chose to externally edit the text, the acctended characters are totally
screwed. Is there a setting that I may have overlooked?

I tried Wordpad, Notepad, XWNT, E3 - all the same. Example: s (U Umlaut)=

Thanks
B.

---------------------
Phone: 707-254-9424
EMail: krevet@ibm.net

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 00:51:09 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Cristian Secara)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 02:51:09 +0300
Subject: Life after PMMail
Message-ID: <200003272349.BAA20791@beavis.fx.ro>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:47:35 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>    You're forgetting places like Deja, RemarQ, AOL and WebTV allow newsgroup
>access.  Think about it.  ;)

Not sure, but when posting via Deja.com it seems to me I have not the
tools required to compose a HTML messages for posting to newsgroups.

Best wishes,
	Cristi

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 01:27:21 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Larry Ebbitt)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:27:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: (OT) Manual Transmissions (was: Life after PMMail)
In-Reply-To: <2624.000327@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <E12Zjqv-0004R0-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:59:07 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>Hey, that's what finding new routes through residential areas is all
>about.  Lights, traffic, what're those?  Sure it takes me an extra 2-3 miles
>to get to work, but it's lovely country.  :)

Hoo, buy, would you not like Atlanta.  New routes are almost always hard
to find and then filled with lights and stop signs.  Atlanta is the most
difficult place to navigate I've ever seen, and I spent 22 years in San
Francisco.

>> OTOH, if you are one of those who delays at stop lights because they are in
>> neutral and then makes me brake as they pause to shift, I'd be happy to do
>> the ripping. I get the feeling you are not one of the latter.

>    Heh.  To think I am looking at the new 2k Celica as a replacement.  Feh.
>Need to pay this one off.

How about a nice Honda 2000?  Were I younger, I'd be mortgaging the dog 
and the wife.  At my age, the Effie is perfect.

Larry  -  Atlanta / OS/2

DISCLAIMER:  In the case that I contradicted something else I said 
in this or some other post, the verbiage that is correct will override 
the incorrect verbiage and the incorrect verbiage will be void!

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 01:29:33 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Larry Ebbitt)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:29:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003272349.BAA20791@beavis.fx.ro>
Message-ID: <E12Zjt2-0004VF-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 02:51:09 +0300, Cristian Secara wrote:

>Not sure, but when posting via Deja.com it seems to me I have not the
>tools required to compose a HTML messages for posting to newsgroups.

One hopes!

Larry  -  Atlanta / OS/2

DISCLAIMER:  In the case that I contradicted something else I said 
in this or some other post, the verbiage that is correct will override 
the incorrect verbiage and the incorrect verbiage will be void!

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 01:55:06 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Stephen A. Carter)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:55:06 +0900 (JST)
Subject: Re[4]: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <18677.000327@caballe.com>
Message-ID: <20000328004642.EA5744041@smtp03.mail.gol.com>

Xavi:

There's a web page at http://dehoog.org/html/j-email.html with
in-depth reviews and comparisons of a dozen or so different mailers. 
The main point of the comparisons is how well each handles Japanese
text (which is why PMMail wasn't even considered -- it doesn't handle
Japanese out of the box, though there are workarounds), but the
author also discusses how well each mailer handles HTML email, so you
may find it useful.

-- 
Stephen A. Carter            High-Tech Information Center Nagoya, Ltd.
mailto:scarter@hticn.com                                 Nagoya, Japan
http://www2.gol.com/users/hticn/               PGP key ID:  0x59B4F7AD

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 04:14:09 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Jim Nuytens)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 03:14:09 +0000
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <E12ZhHI-0002lU-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003280312.DAA01066@magpage.com>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:42:25 -0500 (EST), Larry Ebbitt wrote:

>On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:56:30 +0000, Jim Nuytens wrote:
>
>>It already has. For some time. I can't tell you the number of times
>>I've screamed at idiots who post on the newsgroups with HTML 
>>turned on.
>
>It's surprising that anyone that ignorant could figure out
>how to subscribe.

Don't confuse ignorance with stupidity. Ignorance can sometimes be
cured. Stupidity often goes clear down to the bone. :-)

Not knowing you're doing something wrong is ignorance. 

Knowingly doing something without regard for how others have to deal
with it is thoughtlessness. 

Knowingly doing something that you can't figure out how to turn off,
that's stupidity.

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 04:20:08 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Jim Nuytens)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 03:20:08 +0000
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <E12ZiOv-0003uo-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003280318.DAA01924@magpage.com>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:54:20 -0500 (EST), Larry Ebbitt wrote:

>On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:44:54 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:
>
>>You'd be surprised at the number of webtv people that go 
>>wondering through the newsgroups I frequent.  :P
>
>Amazing!  I wonder how the found their way.  I mostly visit 
>comp.os groups and I guess I escape this.

I've seen it on one or two comp.os groups as well, althought it is
mostly in the rest of the sewer that is usenet today. 

That's one of the reasons I harp on people NOT to use Netscape for
anything other than actual surfing.

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 04:21:35 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (John Angelico)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:21:35 +0900 (EST)
Subject: Re[2]: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <10680.000327@caballe.com>
Message-ID: <E12Zldj-0004g2-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:19:19 +0200, Xavier Caball=82 wrote:

>Hello John,
>
>JA> The whole thing sounds to me like writing a letter with cut-out let=
ters collected from newspapers.
>
>Well, that's exactly how some HTML messages look like on PMMail... :)
>
>Xavi
>
I may be a bit late with this reply, but HTML is for web browsers, email=
 (text) is for mail programs.

Why would I want my spreadsheet to read and render my word processor doc=
ument? Or turning it around, why would I want 
my spreadsheet *engine* to render my compound document's word processiin=
g text portion when I have a word processor 
*engine* to do that?

I don't use a spanner as a hammer - except I feel like I might try it on=
 some brain-dead computer "users" sometimes.

Best regards
John Angelico
OS/2 SIG
Melbourne PC User Group Inc.
Email: talldad@melbpc.org.au or talldad@kepl.com.au
--------------------------------------------------------------------

PMTagline v1.50 - Copyright, 1996-1997, Stephen Berg and John Angelico
... OXYMORON #585: Microsoft Works

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 05:47:38 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Andrew Buc)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:47:38 -0700
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <20000327213604.E17894@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <E12ZomK-00056G-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:36:04 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>    Why?  That's what Opera is for.  ;)

If only the OS/2 version were out.

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 06:30:35 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Alexander Sarras)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 07:30:35 +0200 (CED)
Subject: Re[4]: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003272026.WAA03379@m1smtpsp02.wanadoo.es>
Message-ID: <20000328053056.UGKM3543.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:03:21 +0200, xavier caballe wrote:

> >How about filters? And how does PMMail ruin your HTML message?
> 
> May I send a screenshot?
> 
To me, yes. But I wouldn't do that to the list. 
SaS
-- 
       Dr. Alexander Sarras         |     * Trouble * IS my middle name!
  www.sarras.at     mail@sarras.at  |           The TroubleShooter
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 06:35:33 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:35:33 -0800
Subject: Re[4]: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <20000328053056.UGKM3543.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>; from sas@merlin.ap.univie.ac.at on Tue, Mar 28, 2000 at 07:30:35AM +0200
References: <200003272026.WAA03379@m1smtpsp02.wanadoo.es> <20000328053056.UGKM3543.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>
Message-ID: <20000327213533.D17894@rpglink.com>

On Tue, Mar 28, 2000 at 07:30:35AM +0200, Alexander Sarras wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:03:21 +0200, xavier caballe wrote:

> To me, yes. But I wouldn't do that to the list. 

    He's more that welcome to do so to the list.  Of course Listar is set to
deMIME everything and if it ain't text, it ain't getting through.  ;)

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 06:36:04 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:36:04 -0800
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003280318.DAA01924@magpage.com>; from n3jja@magpage.com on Tue, Mar 28, 2000 at 03:20:08AM +0000
References: <E12ZiOv-0003uo-00@teleute.rpglink.com> <200003280318.DAA01924@magpage.com>
Message-ID: <20000327213604.E17894@rpglink.com>

On Tue, Mar 28, 2000 at 03:20:08AM +0000, Jim Nuytens wrote:
> That's one of the reasons I harp on people NOT to use Netscape for
> anything other than actual surfing.

    Why?  That's what Opera is for.  ;)

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 07:07:40 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Wendt)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:07:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <E12ZZ69-0003a0-00@mserv1a.u-net.net>
Message-ID: <200003280700.XAA03068@fingers.shocking.com>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:58:09 +0100, David Gaskill wrote:

>In the end I put the whole lot up on a website. I did this with some 

Probably the best solution... HTML is for the web.  :)

-----------
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly,
while bad people will find a way around the laws."
     - Plato (427-347 B.C.)

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 07:09:14 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Wendt)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:09:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <E12ZZTu-0005nq-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003280700.XAA03076@fingers.shocking.com>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:09:27 -0500 (EST), W. J. Myles wrote:

>Funny (as in funny/strange).  Of the hundreds of emails I
>get each day the only ones in HTML format are usually
>spam...

I have no idea if I get any HTML e-mail.  PMMail/2 strips all that crap out!
This is the best way to handle it, IMHO.

-----------
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly,
while bad people will find a way around the laws."
     - Plato (427-347 B.C.)

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 07:12:08 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Wendt)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:12:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003271323.OAA11709@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200003280702.XAA03223@fingers.shocking.com>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:23:31 +0000 (GMT), Simon Bowring wrote:

><FONT FACE="    " LANG="ZH-CN" SIZE=3> Regards </FONT>!

What's that, some kind of joke?

-----------
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly,
while bad people will find a way around the laws."
     - Plato (427-347 B.C.)

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 07:23:38 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Wendt)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:23:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re[2]: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <15742.000327@caballe.com>
Message-ID: <200003280700.XAA03080@fingers.shocking.com>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:49:07 +0200, Xavier Caball=82 wrote:

>most people from the U.S. believe Earth is not round, but we do know

??? I don't think my neighbors are *that* ignorant.  :)

>If your customers/your boss asks you to send an
>HTML mail because they want to send a message with pictures, links,
>bold letter and so you have two options:

Option 3: explain why it's dumb...

-----------
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly,
while bad people will find a way around the laws."
     - Plato (427-347 B.C.)

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 07:31:31 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Wendt)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:31:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003271642.TAA02203@ns.izexim.ro>
Message-ID: <200003280700.XAA03086@fingers.shocking.com>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:31:58 +0300, Cristian Secara wrote:

>Under some circumstances, there may be people with e-mail access, but
>not full www access.

Attach HTML file.

-----------
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly,
while bad people will find a way around the laws."
     - Plato (427-347 B.C.)

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 07:34:35 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Wendt)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:34:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re[4]: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003271723.NAA22705@jupiter.accesscable.net>
Message-ID: <200003280700.XAA03090@fingers.shocking.com>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:22:42 -0400 (AST), Trevor Smith wrote:

>Hmmm... Maybe I should whip up and post a filter that checks for HTML
>formatted mail and sends an auto-reply to the sender telling him/her
>that we don't like it. :-)

New feature for service release of PMMail.  :)

-----------
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly,
while bad people will find a way around the laws."
     - Plato (427-347 B.C.)

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 07:42:54 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Wendt)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:42:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re[2]: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003272026.WAA03371@m1smtpsp02.wanadoo.es>
Message-ID: <200003280700.XAA03095@fingers.shocking.com>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:59:41 +0200, xavier caballe wrote:

>>> * a) Quit your job
>
>You're not like my manager... He will say it's my fault because I did a poor job!!! 

If you've got such a dumb manager, your first option looks attractive...

-----------
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly,
while bad people will find a way around the laws."
     - Plato (427-347 B.C.)

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 07:43:44 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Wendt)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:43:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re[4]: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003272026.WAA03379@m1smtpsp02.wanadoo.es>
Message-ID: <200003280700.XAA03099@fingers.shocking.com>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:03:21 +0200, xavier caballe wrote:

>>How about filters? And how does PMMail ruin your HTML message?
>
>May I send a screenshot?

Not to the list, please.  ;)

-----------
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly,
while bad people will find a way around the laws."
     - Plato (427-347 B.C.)

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 07:56:01 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Brian Morrison)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 07:56:01 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003271947.UAA05310@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>
Message-ID: <E12ZqJ6-0005iY-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:47:14 +0000 (GMT), Simon Bowring wrote:

>
>Nice 140 character lines BTW!

ROFL!

- -- 

Brian Morrison                                  bdm@fenrir.demon.co.uk

 "Almost noon, and she had yet to go the launderette in Concreton to 
 thaw out chickens in the spin-drier..."

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= C7 12 B9 54 00 0F 51 F6  37 9B 18 D1 E1 61 14 0B

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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 10:46:50 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Simon Bowring)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:46:50 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: OT: HTML in news
In-Reply-To: <20000327225831.UHSY4993.mail.rdc1.il.home.com@abraxas3>
Message-ID: <200003280846.JAA19421@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:58:30 -0500 (EST), Dan Casey wrote:

>Well .. I've already seen HTML in USENET News Groups ... I normally
>just delete it.

Some news host's filter out all HTML, when I was with ibm.net a number
of years ago, they filtered HTMLs and even binaries from groups without
binaries in the name or explicity mentioned in the groups' charters.

What these poor innocent souls/twats (delete as appropriate) don't 
realise is that if they post in HTML, then their messages will not 
even reach a great many people.  Add to this the number of people 
who won't or can't read the message because it's in an HTML 
attachment, and they've generated a very convoluted way to chuck 
their postings in the bit bucket!

AFAIK this was exclusively netscape's fault - they started shipping
a version of communicator with HTML posting to news enabled by 
default. Embrace! Extend! Screw everyone! Die! Great business plan.

Simon

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 14:10:21 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Larry Ebbitt)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:10:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003280312.DAA01066@magpage.com>
Message-ID: <20000328131137.DED1F5AAC@heaven.gigo.com>

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 03:14:09 +0000, Jim Nuytens wrote:

>Don't confuse ignorance with stupidity. Ignorance can sometimes be
>cured. Stupidity often goes clear down to the bone. :-)

I really wasn't, I was just trying, for once, to be nice <g>.

Larry  -  Atlanta / OS/2

DISCLAIMER:  In the case that I contradicted something else I said 
in this or some other post, the verbiage that is correct will override 
the incorrect verbiage and the incorrect verbiage will be void!

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 14:17:08 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Jim Nuytens)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:17:08 +0000
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <20000327213604.E17894@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003281315.NAA05246@magpage.com>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:36:04 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>On Tue, Mar 28, 2000 at 03:20:08AM +0000, Jim Nuytens wrote:
>> That's one of the reasons I harp on people NOT to use Netscape for
>> anything other than actual surfing.
>
>    Why?  That's what Opera is for.  ;)

On OS/2? That'll be another cold day in hell before we see that.

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 14:38:54 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Jonathan B. Bayer)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:38:54 -0500
Subject: Re[4]: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003280700.XAA03090@fingers.shocking.com>
Message-ID: <200003281350.IAA00831@bayerfamily.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:34:35 -0800 (PST), Steve Wendt wrote:

>On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:22:42 -0400 (AST), Trevor Smith wrote:
>
>>Hmmm... Maybe I should whip up and post a filter that checks for HTML
>>formatted mail and sends an auto-reply to the sender telling him/her
>>that we don't like it. :-)
>
>New feature for service release of PMMail.  :)

Not needed.  Just set up a filter which looks for some HTML tags, and
send an auto-reply.  Works, no need to make the program any more
complicated than it already is.

JBB
- --
ICQ # 44910403
Power Listviewer URL:   http://www.bigfoot.com/~PowerListviewer
PMMail Archiver URL:    http://www.bigfoot.com/~Jonathan_Bayer/archiver

For PGP Public key block/Fingerprint send the following message to me as the Subject:
        Send PGP Signature

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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 14:40:25 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Jonathan B. Bayer)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:40:25 -0500
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <E12ZomK-00056G-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003281352.IAA00837@bayerfamily.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:47:38 -0700, Andrew Buc wrote:

>On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:36:04 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:
>
>>    Why?  That's what Opera is for.  ;)
>
>If only the OS/2 version were out.
>

Run the Win-16 version of Opera in a Win-OS2 session.  Works pretty
well.

JBB
- --
ICQ # 44910403
Power Listviewer URL:   http://www.bigfoot.com/~PowerListviewer
PMMail Archiver URL:    http://www.bigfoot.com/~Jonathan_Bayer/archiver

For PGP Public key block/Fingerprint send the following message to me as the Subject:
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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 14:42:21 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Jonathan B. Bayer)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:42:21 -0500
Subject: (OT) Manual Transmissions (was: Life after PMMail)
In-Reply-To: <E12Zjqv-0004R0-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003281354.IAA00843@bayerfamily.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:27:21 -0500 (EST), Larry Ebbitt wrote:

>
>How about a nice Honda 2000?  Were I younger, I'd be mortgaging the dog 
>and the wife.  At my age, the Effie is perfect.
>

Nah, I'll the the Subaru Forester.

JBB
- --
ICQ # 44910403
Power Listviewer URL:   http://www.bigfoot.com/~PowerListviewer
PMMail Archiver URL:    http://www.bigfoot.com/~Jonathan_Bayer/archiver

For PGP Public key block/Fingerprint send the following message to me as the Subject:
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 14:43:23 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Michael Baum)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:43:23 -0500
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <E12ZqJ6-0005iY-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003281335.IAA01227@email.nist.gov>

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 07:56:01 +0100 (BST), Brian Morrison wrote:

>On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:47:14 +0000 (GMT), Simon Bowring wrote:
>
>>
>>Nice 140 character lines BTW!
>
>ROFL!

???

I must have deleted the doubtlessly extensive list discussion on line-length etiquette without reading or noting it. I noticed, of course,  that you made this comment in your reply to my original note, but I decided, mindful of the value of time to both of us, to ignore it as an unexplained datum. Tha' understand, I don't get out much. Anyway, Mr. Morrison implies that it's a real thigh-slapper.

Why is that? I generally reflow messages on sending to some very long string length on the theory that the reader's mail client can happily wrap them to fit whatever size message window it currently has open. It avoids that annoying comb-tooth text effect when a mail program has inserted hard carriage returns every so often to enforce a particular line length which happens to be longer than the width of my default message window.

I collect this is Not The Done Thing? Why?

In some bewilderment,
maab

=============================================================
Michael Baum  <michael.baum@nist.gov>

You should never have your best trousers on when you go out
 to fight for freedom and truth. - Ibsen
=============================================================

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 14:44:35 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Jonathan B. Bayer)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:44:35 -0500
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <E12Zi31-0003d4-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003281356.IAA00849@bayerfamily.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:31:42 -0500 (EST), Larry Ebbitt wrote:

>
>I would not have offered my customers such a foolish service.
>

But what would you do if they asked for it?

JBB
- --
ICQ # 44910403
Power Listviewer URL:   http://www.bigfoot.com/~PowerListviewer
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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 14:52:19 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Jonathan B. Bayer)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:52:19 -0500
Subject: (OT) Manual Transmissions (was: Life after PMMail)
In-Reply-To: <10603.000327@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003281404.JAA00866@bayerfamily.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:29:39 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>    Speak for yourself.  I know my commute[1] is made much better by my car[1]
>and you can rip my stick shift from my cold, dead hands!  :)

Here, here! 

[1] Central NY
[2] '99 Subaru Forester S AWD    
http://www.subaru.com/specs/index.html
- --
ICQ # 44910403
Power Listviewer URL:   http://www.bigfoot.com/~PowerListviewer
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For PGP Public key block/Fingerprint send the following message to me as the Subject:
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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 15:08:41 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Larry Ebbitt)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:08:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003281356.IAA00849@bayerfamily.net>
Message-ID: <E12Zwfh-0006Mz-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:44:35 -0500, Jonathan B. Bayer wrote:

>But what would you do if they asked for it?

Say no and explain why.  You can't please everyone,
but some have a degree of intelligence.

Larry  -  Atlanta / OS/2

DISCLAIMER:  In the case that I contradicted something else I said 
in this or some other post, the verbiage that is correct will override 
the incorrect verbiage and the incorrect verbiage will be void!

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 15:14:46 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 06:14:46 -0800
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003281335.IAA01227@email.nist.gov>; from michael.baum@nist.gov on Tue, Mar 28, 2000 at 08:43:23AM -0500
References: <E12ZqJ6-0005iY-00@teleute.rpglink.com> <200003281335.IAA01227@email.nist.gov>
Message-ID: <20000328061446.G17894@rpglink.com>

On Tue, Mar 28, 2000 at 08:43:23AM -0500, Michael Baum wrote:
> I must have deleted the doubtlessly extensive list discussion on line-length etiquette without reading or noting it. I noticed, of course,  that you made this comment in your reply to my original note, but I decided, mindful of the value of time to both of us, to ignore it as an unexplained datum. Tha' understand, I don't get out much. Anyway, Mr. Morrison implies that it's a real thigh-slapper.

> Why is that? I generally reflow messages on sending to some very long string length on the theory that the reader's mail client can happily wrap them to fit whatever size message window it currently has open. It avoids that annoying comb-tooth text effect when a mail program has inserted hard carriage returns every so often to enforce a particular line length which happens to be longer than the width of my default message window.

> I collect this is Not The Done Thing? Why?

    Because as you can see above, most email clients do the correct thing and
preserve line length when quoting.  Now you have a paragraph with one quote
marker.  Accepted line length is <78 characters (72-76 is often cited).

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 15:46:06 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Michael Baum)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:46:06 -0500
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <20000328061446.G17894@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003281437.JAA15521@email.nist.gov>

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 06:14:46 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>    Because as you can see above, most email clients do the correct thing and
>preserve line length when quoting.  Now you have a paragraph with one quote
>marker.

And this is bad because?

maab

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 16:35:04 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 07:35:04 -0800
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003281437.JAA15521@email.nist.gov>
References: <200003281437.JAA15521@email.nist.gov>
Message-ID: <16316.000328@rpglink.com>

Tuesday, March 28, 2000, 6:46:06 AM, Michael wrote:
> And this is bad because?

    Ralph?  How many times have we gone over this since the list moved to my
server?  How many times before that?  Something tells me I really should make
this a forking FAQ on the list.  :/

    Michael, do you have a client which colorizes quotes?  I'm betting you
don't.  Some people do and it breaks their colorization.

    While you dislike the comb-tooth effect (which I rarely see in email any
more) what you cause is much, much worse.  Furthermore, a lot of clients will
also not wrap your lines and assume you meant for them to be viewed at that
length.

    There is a limit on the length of a line, IIRC, on SMTP servers.

    Finally, it has been the commonly accepted limit for line length since I
started with BBSs on a 300bps modem when I was *9* years old in the early 80s.
It has a 17+ year history behind it.  In short, don't question it, just
comply, you'll suffer a LOT less heartache.  I'm sure lots of other people
will now pipe up to either confirm or fight this message but just trust me on
this, ok?  78 characters, max.

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 16:44:52 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Alexander Sarras)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:44:52 +0200 (CED)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003281356.IAA00849@bayerfamily.net>
Message-ID: <20000328154516.VQAZ3543.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:44:35 -0500, Jonathan B. Bayer wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:31:42 -0500 (EST), Larry Ebbitt wrote:
> 
> >
> >I would not have offered my customers such a foolish service.
> >
> 
> 
> But what would you do if they asked for it?
> 
Triple charges?
SaS
-- 
       Dr. Alexander Sarras         |     * Trouble * IS my middle name!
  www.sarras.at     mail@sarras.at  |           The TroubleShooter
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 16:46:36 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Alexander Sarras)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:46:36 +0200 (CED)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <16316.000328@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <20000328154711.VQEO3543.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 07:35:04 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

> 
>     Ralph?  How many times have we gone over this since the list moved to my
> server?  How many times before that?  Something tells me I really should make
> this a forking FAQ on the list.  :/
IIRC, it was 3 times since 'The Move' ;->

-- 
       Dr. Alexander Sarras         |     * Trouble * IS my middle name!
  www.sarras.at     mail@sarras.at  |           The TroubleShooter
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 16:58:52 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 07:58:52 -0800
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003281555.KAA10427@email.nist.gov>
References: <200003281555.KAA10427@email.nist.gov>
Message-ID: <9332.000328@rpglink.com>

Tuesday, March 28, 2000, 8:04:00 AM, Michael wrote:
> Yes, it's very important not to challenge things on the net with a 17-year
> tradition behind them. That would be bad.

    Without a very good reason, no.  You, sir, don't have a good reason.

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 16:58:54 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Bruce Francis)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:58:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: PMMail 3000 - The Answer
In-Reply-To: <20000327232529.UNUD13052.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@CC892959-A>
Message-ID: <20000328155756.BC3E032593@scribe.pobox.com>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:25:24 -0500 (EST), Ralph Cohen wrote:

>On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:05:13 +0200, xavier caballe wrote:
>
>>No, this thread started because I asked for a mail client as good as PMMail but with good HTML 
support (becuase HTML 
>
>You could wait for PMMail 3000.  It's listed on the elusive PMMail
>timeline from BSW and will properly handle HTML mail and Y3K
>problems.<g>

 /Probably/  .... you really can't be sure, can you?    ;-)
                               ("elusive")

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 17:04:00 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Michael Baum)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:04:00 -0500
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <16316.000328@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003281555.KAA10427@email.nist.gov>

Yes, it's very important not to challenge 
things on the net with a 17-year tradition 
behind them. That would be bad.

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 17:23:36 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Alexander Sarras)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:23:36 +0200 (CED)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003281555.KAA10427@email.nist.gov>
Message-ID: <20000328162353.VSDM3543.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:04:00 -0500, Michael Baum wrote:

> Yes, it's very important not to challenge 
> things on the net with a 17-year tradition 
> behind them. That would be bad.
> 
THAT's not the rason. But it is every _intelligent_ persons duty to query
someones mental fitness who uses an pressure-air driven driller to repair a
harddisk.

Ther are tools and there ar fools.
SaS
-- 
       Dr. Alexander Sarras         |     * Trouble * IS my middle name!
  www.sarras.at     mail@sarras.at  |           The TroubleShooter
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 17:34:38 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Jonas T Larsson)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:34:38 +0200
Subject: Accented characters in PMMAIL (windows) vs External Editor
In-Reply-To: <200003272347.PAA03232@sjpc.sjpc.org>
Message-ID: <0FS5002R44OKW6@piraten.student.lu.se>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 15:43:29 -0800, Bernhard E Krevet wrote:

>When I create or receive email with accented characters (umlaute etc) a=
nd
>chose to externally edit the text, the acctended characters are totally=

>screwed. Is there a setting that I may have overlooked?
>

No, I think the client is buggy, I have the same problem and have tried
virtually every setting comination there is to make the client do this
right. For another side of the same coin try to use "paste quoted" with
some text with high ascii chars and see what happens. In some cases
high ascii even is incorrectly displayed in the normal reader window
but correctly displayed in the preview pane. I have mailed support a
few times about this but still no word from them. This problem regards
both rich text (html) and plain text.

Yours Jonas

-- 
Jonas Larsson       ((     "Var liten r=E4ka
Tornav=E4gen 19:131   ))         ropa och kv=E4ka
223 63 Lund         ((             v=E5ren =E4r h=E4r"
+46 46 139924       ))                          // Ok=E4nd

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 17:34:38 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Jonas T Larsson)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:34:38 +0200
Subject: Accented characters in PMMAIL (windows) vs External Editor
In-Reply-To: <200003272347.PAA03232@sjpc.sjpc.org>
Message-ID: <0FSA002R3UIBW6@piraten.student.lu.se>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 15:43:29 -0800, Bernhard E Krevet wrote:

>When I create or receive email with accented characters (umlaute etc) a=
nd
>chose to externally edit the text, the acctended characters are totally=

>screwed. Is there a setting that I may have overlooked?
>

No, I think the client is buggy, I have the same problem and have tried
virtually every setting comination there is to make the client do this
right. For another side of the same coin try to use "paste quoted" with
some text with high ascii chars and see what happens. In some cases
high ascii even is incorrectly displayed in the normal reader window
but correctly displayed in the preview pane. I have mailed support a
few times about this but still no word from them. This problem regards
both rich text (html) and plain text.

Yours Jonas

-- 
Jonas Larsson       ((     "Var liten r=E4ka
Tornav=E4gen 19:131   ))         ropa och kv=E4ka
223 63 Lund         ((             v=E5ren =E4r h=E4r"
+46 46 139924       ))                          // Ok=E4nd

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 17:36:29 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Jim Nuytens)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 16:36:29 +0000
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003281335.IAA01227@email.nist.gov>
Message-ID: <200003281634.QAA26887@magpage.com>

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:43:23 -0500, Michael Baum wrote:

>Why is that? 

and:

>I collect this is Not The Done Thing? Why?

Hmm......let's see.........what was it I said earlier?

Oh, yeah! Here it is....

"Knowingly doing something without regard for how others have to deal
with it is thoughtlessness. "

Of course, there's another one that goes something like this:

Ignoring standards that have been in place for longer than you've
probably been alive, just because you "feel like it", is arrogant and
selfish.

>Yes, it's very important not to challenge 
>things on the net with a 17-year tradition 
>behind them. That would be bad.

I could say that another way:

"Since I don't know the right thing to do, I'll just ridicule the
existing standard and to hell with everyone else."

Gee, that's nice.........

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 18:26:55 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Simon Bowring)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:26:55 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Email Line Lengths
In-Reply-To: <200003281531.KAA23938@email.nist.gov>
Message-ID: <200003281627.RAA22479@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>

>Well, anyway, that's how I'd answer were I in a debating society. 
i.e. "if you were playing games"! Well, this is how I would answer
your "pretend" arguments, with real heart-felt based on the 
real-world arguments and years of internet use!

>"Broken" quoting is ill-defined
Oh no it isn't ;-)

>I'm kind of inclined to see that as a failure of the mail client
..and so all these (largely Unix and mainframe) users just don't
matter?

>>3. The many mailers that will wrap the text that you send means
>>   that oddly formatted, hard to read lines are produced like:
>On third or fourth resending, maybe, but this isn't the fault of my >original format.

No, on the first sending, and yes it is the fault of your formatting!

>This has long been an unusable convention, killed off by mail clients that 
>use proportionately spaced fonts. There are better ways to do it, anyway, 
>if one allows HTML coding in mail messages. 

Ok, use a proportional font, but you can forget about having *any* control
of the text layout that people will see.  Sure, it doesn't *always*
matter, but it can do.  If you use a proportional font, you can't align
*anything* vertically, EXCEPT in the very first column (there are no 
tabs in email).

8.8.1.  This is a heading

        This is an indented paragraph the "T" in the first "This" is
        aligned with the "T" in the heading.

9.0     THIS IS A HEADING, TOO
        ----------------------

        fig 1. Figures for 1999

                          1000.00
                         10000.00
                        100000.00
                        ---------
                        111000.00

This is guaranteed to line up properly with a non-proportional
font (as God intended).  With a non-proportional font, you would
have to use the exact same font (since proportional font metrics
all vary), and since the font information is not (and cannot) be
passed to the remote mail program, the recipient will not be able
to make it line up.

If you had originated the above aligned text using a proportional
font, it would appear to line up ONLY on your screen.  Anyone
using a different proportional font or any non-proprotional font,
would not be able to make it line up at all.

>Oh, no, wait.... that's a bad >thing, I forgot. :)
It's just an un-thoughtout impossible mess, with no standards
to decide how it should work, there could be no internet if 
internet software "worked" this way!

Sorry, but I'm beginning to dispair of the "I'm alright Jack" 
attitude of so many (most?) internet users, it actually depresses 
me that people are either unwilling to accept or unable to
understand that compromises have to made to fit in with an
existing community and to enable the internet to work across 
multiple disparate systems.

I read your response as, "I don't suffer from these problems and
issues, so why should I care if others do?", but perhaps I'm
being unkind, perhaps you really don't understand?

Unless you really don't understand, I find your attitude discourtious 
at best, and damned bloody minded and rude at worst.

I know I can also be damned bloody minded and rude as well, but it's 
only in response to the apparent rudeness of others (whether intended 
or out of ignorance).

Regards and no offence intended,

Simon

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 19:53:00 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (xavier caballe)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:53:00 +0200
Subject: PMMail 3000 - The Answer
In-Reply-To: <20000328155756.BC3E032593@scribe.pobox.com>
Message-ID: <200003281852.UAA14202@m1smtpsp02.wanadoo.es>

>>You could wait for PMMail 3000.  It's listed on the elusive PMMail
>>timeline from BSW and will properly handle HTML mail and Y3K
>>problems.<g>

I'm affraid I won't live enough to see PMMail 3000... :)

Xavi
---
 My Name is Raincheck and I need a shot of Rhythm'n'Blues!!! 
 When you hear that engine drone, I'm on the road again and I'm searching for the philosophers stone

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 21:45:41 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Michael Baum)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:45:41 -0500
Subject: Email Line Lengths
In-Reply-To: <200003281627.RAA22479@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200003282037.PAA25677@email.nist.gov>

Dear me.

It doesn't take much to push people right over the edge into personal
attack, does it? Perhaps it has something to do with the somewhat flat,
nuance-free nature of email text that makes everything come across as
more brusque than need be.

1. Mr. Lamb: I'm sorry formatting email by paragraph rather than line
breaks your color-coding for quotes. Must be quite annoying. In the
long run, I think it would be better if the email client could adjust
better, but I'll grant you that I don't see any easy way to do that
without at the least introducing yet another "standard" such as a way
to bracket quotes. And in the long run we're all dead, as Keynes
allegedly said.

2. Lamb>    There is a limit on the length of a line, IIRC, on SMTP
servers.
Wood>	First, the internet itself (mail server?) limits mail line
length to approximately 1000 bytes then it inserts a hard return and a
few spaces. Nobody seems to remember why this is done, but it is. Thus
your paragraphs should not exceed 1000 characters.

Thank you, I didn't know that. That's a pretty good reason to go to a
fixed-length line. Though once again, in the long run it would be
better to change the limitation.

3. Mr. Bowring:
Bowring>>>3. The many mailers that will wrap the text that you send
means
>>>   that oddly formatted, hard to read lines are produced like:
Me>>On third or fourth resending, maybe, but this isn't the fault of my
original format.
Bowring>No, on the first sending, and yes it is the fault of your
formatting!

As it read this exchange between us, you seem to be telling me that
many email clients, when they receive an arbitrarily long string like
one of my notorious 300+ character paragraphs -- on the _first
sending_, as you say -- will wrap the text in such a way as to produce
a series of lines of drastically varying length. (I've omitted your
example to say space.) Frankly, I can't imagine why that would be. It
would seem that the author of the client program would have to go to
some not inconsiderable trouble (calls to a random number routine?) to
do such uneven wrapping. Why would one code that in? Are you quite sure
of this?

As an aside, if you are going to use this list to post your reply to a
note that I sent to you privately -- which you can do, of course -- it
would be nice if you copied it in its entirety so that other readers
can evaluate your judgment that I am, umm, what was it?
Bowring>discourteous at best, and damned bloody minded and rude at
worst.

As I recall, I thanked you for your information at least twice and in
between thank-yous offered arguments counter to your arguments. They
weren't all that bad. I added a line to soften the tone a bit (I
observed earlier how harsh these email texts can sound), and you leaped
on it to tell me that I was "playing games." All in all, you found my
note ignorant and rude. I have to conclude that you spend much of your
time being insulted and offended?

4. Mr. Nuytens:
Nuytens>Ignoring standards that have been in place for longer than
you've
Nuytens>probably been alive, just because you "feel like it", is
arrogant and
Nuytens>selfish.

I don't see that a person's age has anything in particular to do with
the validity of their arguments in this case. And I didn't take the
position I did "just because I feel like it". Perhaps you didn't read
my original message. I think paragraph-based formatting is a better
approach over all. Or would be save perhaps for the arguments by Lamb
and Wood at 1 and 2, supra, which are pretty good.  Particularly 2.

Ibid.>"Since I don't know the right thing to do, I'll just ridicule the
Ibid.>existing standard and to hell with everyone else."

This is obviously some meaning of "standard" with which I am
unacquainted. No specific line length seems to be enforced by the mail
protocols save the ~1000 byte limit that Mr. Wood cites, and I assume
1000 is too long for you. I seem to encounter quite a few mail clients
-- PMMail, say -- that leave it entirely to the user's discretion.
Standard? Please.

5. Dr. Alexander "Trouble" Sarras:
maab>> Yes, it's very important not to challenge 
maab>> things on the net with a 17-year tradition 
maab>> behind them. That would be bad.
>> 
ATS>THAT's not the rason. But it is every _intelligent_ persons duty to
query
ATS>someones mental fitness who uses an pressure-air driven driller to
repair a
ATS>harddisk.
>
ATS>There are tools and there are fools.

I'm sorry, this is just supposed to be gibberish, right?

M. A. Baum

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 21:46:43 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Alexander Sarras)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:46:43 +0200 (CED)
Subject: Email Line Lengths
In-Reply-To: <200003282037.PAA25677@email.nist.gov>
Message-ID: <20000329103638.BNB22979.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:45:41 -0500, Michael Baum wrote:

> 
> I'm sorry, this is just supposed to be gibberish, right?
> 
No, it'S the frustrated rambling after more of a decade of getting socalled
nice looking emails with overlong lines or html / enriched formating from
people who didn't ever take a lok at netiquette. It's especially
frustration if you imagine someone paying hard cash per minute online, and
then your phoneline get cluttered up by a dozen short notes each about
10-20K when the overall length of information in plain ascii would have
been less then 2k.

SaS 
-- 
       Dr. Alexander Sarras         |     * Trouble * IS my middle name!
  www.sarras.at     mail@sarras.at  |           The TroubleShooter
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 22:31:51 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Carl S. Hayes)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 16:31:51 -0500
Subject: Email Line Lengths
In-Reply-To: <200003282037.PAA25677@email.nist.gov>
Message-ID: <E12a3a5-00075v-00@smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net>

FWIW . . .

In case anyone is interested if does this because prior to
PC and monitors we use the TI Silent 300 and a FAX type
paper for most ARPANET communications.

Carl

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:45:41 -0500, Michael Baum wrote:

>2. Lamb>    There is a limit on the length of a line, IIRC, on SMTP
>servers.
>Wood>	First, the internet itself (mail server?) limits mail line
>length to approximately 1000 bytes then it inserts a hard return and a
>few spaces. Nobody seems to remember why this is done, but it is. Thus
>your paragraphs should not exceed 1000 characters.

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 22:39:34 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Dr. Jeffrey Race)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 00 16:39:34 -0500
Subject: Email Line Lengths
Message-ID: <E12a3i8-0008Ls-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:45:41 -0500, Michael Baum wrote: [a lot]

My $0.02:

When PMMail appears in a small window on my Thinkpad, it displays 73 
characters.   If a quoted text arrives with natively longer lines, I
will see a ragged edge, which is quite troublesome, as it is hard to
read or alternatively I must maximize the window, which I sometimes
find inconvenient due to other tasks being open.

Therefore out of consideration for others I limit my outgoing mail to
about 70 characters, so as to allow for quote symbols.    I hope 
others will show me the same consideration.

Kind regards to all,

Jeffrey Race, 20 Chester Street, Somerville MA 02144-3005    USA
Tel +1 617 625-7645 (res)              Tel +1 617 629-2805 (ofc)
Fax +1 617 623-1882                        <jrace@attglobal.net>
Tel +1 617 823-2941 and +1 617 504-4124   (mobile--sometimes on)
------------"Experts agree: everything is fine."----------------                                                                           

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 22:45:00 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:45:00 -0800
Subject: Email Line Lengths
In-Reply-To: <200003282037.PAA25677@email.nist.gov>
References: <200003282037.PAA25677@email.nist.gov>
Message-ID: <19572.000328@rpglink.com>

Tuesday, March 28, 2000, 12:45:41 PM, Michael wrote:
> It doesn't take much to push people right over the edge into personal
> attack, does it?

    Well, considering this is a topic that this list and many of its
individuals have had to explain, at length, on an average of once every 3
months for the past 5 years.... no.

> Thank you, I didn't know that. That's a pretty good reason to go to a
> fixed-length line. Though once again, in the long run it would be better to
> change the limitation.

    Changing it would be quite a task.  Not to mention it doesn't address the
plethora of other reasons for having line limits like the many people who use
terminals and not GUI to read mail which are, traditionally, limited to 80
characters.  Heck, 1/2 my outgoing mail these days is sent from mutt on my
Linux box' console.  80x50.

    The best reason, one that you cannot get around, is the fact that email
clients should not assume what is going on and wrap a long line in the first
place.  The client doesn't know what that blob of ASCII is representing.
/YOU/ don't know what it is representing and writing a technical specification
to address that would be an exercise in extreme futility.

    That is why the formatting of email is address by convention and not
standards.  We can break convention when it is needed.  For example, if I were
sending you code which could go up to 300 characters long, wrapping would be a
bad thing, esp. when quoting or forwarding to other people.  Enforcing
convention would break that.

    At the same time convention is that an 80 character wide screen is both
the minimum and maximum accepted limit.  IE, if someone were reading on a CoCo
3 with their 40 line wide screen, they'd have no right to really complain.  At
the same time someone with a 132 wide screen could get some extra use from
paragraph formatted lines but they really don't lose anything.  I should know,
I did read FidoNet echos on a 132 wide screen at one point.  Sure, part of the
screen went unused, but who cares?  I didn't because the extra space was nice
in other areas.  I'd much rather conform to the convention so that we can
remain on the same page, if you will, when it comes to communicating in this
medium.

> I don't see that a person's age has anything in particular to do with
> the validity of their arguments in this case.

    No, they aren't.  However, it has been the experience of a /lot/ of old
timers to networked communications (notice the difference between that and
"the internet") that it is the relative newbies, esp. the young ones, that
don't want to conform to the conventions that are, more often than not, older
than they are.

    Hell, I remember when I got my peepee wacked for doing the exact same
thing about, oh, 10-11 years ago on Fidonet.  ;)

> This is obviously some meaning of "standard" with which I am
> unacquainted.

    Convention, really, generally called "Good netiquette" which, to many
people, including myself, has the force of a standard except in rare cases
(one of which I cited above).  Trim quotes, interlace quotes with repies,
72-76 character maximum, quote with the > character, etc.

> I'm sorry, this is just supposed to be gibberish, right?

    Pardon Alexander, sometimes I feel his English, which I gather is not his
native tongue, doesn't lend to smooth communication.  I'm sure that if English
weren't my mother tongue I would be quite a bit more incomprehensible than I
normally am.  I do know that my Esperanto leaves a lot to be desired.  ;)

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 22:57:32 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Cristian Secara)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 00:57:32 +0300
Subject: Life after PMMail
Message-ID: <200003282202.AAA22265@beavis.fx.ro>

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:40:25 -0500, Jonathan B. Bayer wrote:

>Run the Win-16 version of Opera in a Win-OS2 session.  Works pretty
>well.

... or use WinNT and run the 32bit Opera ... :P

Excuse me, but what's then the 'benefit' of using OS/2 ?

Best wishes,
	Cristi

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 23:04:59 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Cristian Secara)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 01:04:59 +0300
Subject: Re[4]: Life after PMMail
Message-ID: <200003282202.AAA10239@beavis.fx.ro>

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:38:54 -0500, Jonathan B. Bayer wrote:

>>New feature for service release of PMMail.  :)
>Not needed.  Just set up a filter which looks for some HTML tags, and
>send an auto-reply.

Just curious - how can you do that for an unknown sender ?
The filter action for 'replay' suppose a known recipient that has to be
manually entered.
Are the predefined variables working into that field ? ($h.fromid$ for
example)

?

Best wishes,
	Cristi

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 23:16:04 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:16:04 -0800
Subject: Email Line Lengths
In-Reply-To: <200003282211.RAA01381@email.nist.gov>
References: <200003282211.RAA01381@email.nist.gov>
Message-ID: <5594.000328@rpglink.com>

Tuesday, March 28, 2000, 2:20:02 PM, Michael wrote:
> someone receiving these things on a @$%@% Palm Pilot, we're all in
> trouble! :)

    Would it be to late to mention I do get mail on my Palm from time to time?
Of course I know that that is well below the accepted limit so I don't
complain just as the 73 character screen is below.

> Oh, well, <70, check.

    Or just reflow quotes.

> (I guess it would be tedious of me to point out that
> paragraph-based formatting, which is what I was arguing for, would
> eliminate the ragged lines that bother you? That's why I favor it.
> Pace that quoting issue and the fossilized 1000-char limit from the
> ARPANET days. No, you're right. It _would_ be tedious.)

    Except it introduces the host of problems we have described to you.
Simply put it forces an assumption about the data to be made which is best not
to be made by the software.

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 23:19:20 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Trevor Smith)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:19:20 -0400 (AST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <20000327213604.E17894@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003282219.SAA26255@jupiter.accesscable.net>

OK, for those who wanted a filter for HTML email, here it is. This
one is very basic so I questioned whether I should even post it but I
guess some people might not have known how to do the following. This
filter should catch any HTML email from Netscape. Does IE use a
different "content-type" line? I don't know. I'll check later tonight
when I boot to Windows.

1. Create a new canned reply in PMMail/2:
  a) Click "Account->Account Settings...".
  b) Select the "Canned Replies" page.
  c) Click the "New" button.
  d) Enter a name for your canned in the "Description" entry field.
     "HTML email" is a good name.
  e) In the multi-line entry field (the big white area) enter
     whatever text you want to send to people who send you HTML
     email. In my canned reply I (politely) notify the sender that
     not all email clients can properly display HTML and that they're
     wasting their time sending me HTML formatting since PMMail/2
     strips it out.
  f) Click the "OK" button.

2. Create a new filter in PMMail/2:
  a) Click "Account->Filters..." in the PMMail/2 main menu, if you do
     not already have the Account Settings notebook open; if you do
     already have the Account Settings notebook open, just select the
     "Filters" page.
  b) Click the "New" button.
  c) Give your filter a name (enter it in the "Description" field).
     Again, something like "HTML email" should do.
  d) Select the "Complex" radio button.
  e) In the multi-line entryfield below the "Complex" radio button,
     enter the following:

     (Header.toid="youremail@yourdomain")
     & 
     (Header.Content-Type="text/html")

     Make sure you change youremail@yourdomain to YOUR REAL EMAIL
     ADDRESS. The purpose and rationale behind this is that much spam
     email contains HTML and there is no point replying to spam (in
     fact, it's probably harmful because it will alert the sender
     that your email address is working and they may send you *MORE*
     spam!).

     Luckily, often spam is sent to someone else's "To:" address,
     not yours (you get it because you're listed as a Cc: or Bcc:
     addressee). So, our filter only catches messages specifically
     listing YOU in the To: field, to avoid sending a canned reply
     (see #2g below) to spammers.

     The second search term in the above filter looks for a
     "Content-Type" line in the incoming email's header that contains
     "text/html". This is the line that Netscape Navigator sets for
     HTML email.

  f) Make sure the "Enabled" and "Incoming" checkboxes are checked.
  g) In the "Actions" area, select whatever actions you want to take
     when faced with incoming HTML email. If you followed step one
     above and created a canned reply, select "Send canned reply"
     from the first drop down list. In the adjacent entry field
     (which only becomes visible after you have selected "Send canned
     reply") enter the EXACT name of the canned reply you created.
  h) Click the "OK" button to close the "Edit Filter" dialog window.
  i) Click the "OK" button to close the Account Settings notebook.

If you want to delete HTML messages along with sending a canned
reply, just delete the messages, or do something else, play around
with the various "Actions" that PMMail/2's filters offer.

-- 
 Trevor Smith          |          trevor@haligonian.com
 PGP public key available at: www.haligonian.com/trevor

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= A68C C4EC C163 5C0A 6CFA  671F 05D4 0B30 318B AFD6

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 23:20:02 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Michael Baum)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:20:02 -0500
Subject: Email Line Lengths
In-Reply-To: <E12a3i8-0008Ls-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003282211.RAA01381@email.nist.gov>

>When PMMail appears in a small window on my Thinkpad, it displays 73 
>characters.   If a quoted text arrives with natively longer lines, I
>will see a ragged edge, which is quite troublesome, as it is hard to
>read or alternatively I must maximize the window, which I sometimes
>find inconvenient due to other tasks being open.
>
>Therefore out of consideration for others I limit my outgoing mail to
>about 70 characters, so as to allow for quote symbols.    I hope 
>others will show me the same consideration.

Dang! I had just changed my PMMail options to 72-character lines as
recommended by Messrs. Lamb and Bowring, and now the bar's been
dropped by another two characters! Where will it all end? We get
someone receiving these things on a @$%@% Palm Pilot, we're all in
trouble! :)

Oh, well, <70, check.

(I guess it would be tedious of me to point out that
paragraph-based formatting, which is what I was arguing for, would
eliminate the ragged lines that bother you? That's why I favor it.
Pace that quoting issue and the fossilized 1000-char limit from the
ARPANET days. No, you're right. It _would_ be tedious.)

- maab

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 23:20:57 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Trevor Smith)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:20:57 -0400 (AST)
Subject: Re[4]: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003282202.AAA10239@beavis.fx.ro>
Message-ID: <200003282221.SAA26719@jupiter.accesscable.net>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 01:04:59 +0300, Cristian Secara wrote:

>On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:38:54 -0500, Jonathan B. Bayer wrote:
>
>>>New feature for service release of PMMail.  :)
>>Not needed.  Just set up a filter which looks for some HTML tags, and
>>send an auto-reply.
>
>Just curious - how can you do that for an unknown sender ?

:-) I just sent a message to the list explaining exactly how to
create a filter to send a canned reply when any HTML messages are
received. I'll make modifications to it as suggestions are submitted.

-- 
 Trevor Smith          |          trevor@haligonian.com
 PGP public key available at: www.haligonian.com/trevor

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= A68C C4EC C163 5C0A 6CFA  671F 05D4 0B30 318B AFD6

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Tue Mar 28 23:44:48 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Michael Baum)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:44:48 -0500
Subject: Email Line Lengths
In-Reply-To: <19572.000328@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003282236.RAA27856@email.nist.gov>

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:45:00 -0800, Fr. Shrink wrote:

>Tuesday, March 28, 2000, 12:45:41 PM, Michael wrote:
>> It doesn't take much to push people right over the edge into personal
>> attack, does it?
>
>    Well, considering this is a topic that this list and many of its
>individuals have had to explain, at length, on an average of once every 3
>months for the past 5 years.... no.

Dunno, Steve. This may say that you're swimming against the tide.
Nothing wrong with that, of course.

>    Changing it would be quite a task.  Not to mention it doesn't address the
>plethora of other reasons for having line limits like the many people who use
>terminals and not GUI to read mail which are, traditionally, limited to 80
>characters.  Heck, 1/2 my outgoing mail these days is sent from mutt on my
>Linux box' console.  80x50.

I wonder how many people that _really_ represents, world-wide, in
these days of OS/2, Windows-Whatever, Macintosh, Acorn and
X-Windows? I will grant you that when I'm working on me trusty
Linux server over here, I rarely if ever fire up X-Windows,
prefering the simple console interface, but I'm na' so sure that's
typical. You might _feel_ that there's a lot of you out there, but
I'd be curious to see some documented numbers.

>    The best reason, one that you cannot get around, is the fact that email
>clients should not assume what is going on and wrap a long line in the first
>place.  The client doesn't know what that blob of ASCII is representing.
>/YOU/ don't know what it is representing and writing a technical specification
>to address that would be an exercise in extreme futility.

But, don't you see, they do it All The Time. That's _exactly_ my
point.  Indenting each line of a quote and then wrapping the
resulting line to fit an outgoing length is what causes the erratic
line lengths that Dr. Race was just complaining about (q.v.). 
Listen. You all win. I really don't care passionately about this.
But some of these arguments in favor of hard-coding the line
lengths in email messages just don't have any logical consistency.
P'aps best discussed over a beer. After Lent.

....

> However, it has been the experience of a /lot/ of old
>timers to networked communications (notice the difference between that and
>"the internet") that it is the relative newbies, esp. the young ones, that
>don't want to conform to the conventions that are, more often than not, older
>than they are.
>
>    Hell, I remember when I got my peepee wacked for doing the exact same
>thing about, oh, 10-11 years ago on Fidonet.  ;)

Hate those formative experiences, don't you? :)

>    Pardon Alexander, sometimes I feel his English, which I gather is not his
>native tongue, doesn't lend to smooth communication.  I'm sure that if English
>weren't my mother tongue I would be quite a bit more incomprehensible than I
>normally am.  I do know that my Esperanto leaves a lot to be desired.  ;)

Truth. Fact is, Alexander's command of English is a damn sight
better better than my command of, oh, say, German. I shouldn't have
tweaked him so. Don't know what came over me. It was probably
before I'd had my afternoon tea.

Michael

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 00:04:09 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Ralph Cohen)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:04:09 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Life after PMMail
Message-ID: <20000328230433.RIGK13052.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@CC892959-A>

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 07:35:04 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>    Ralph?  How many times have we gone over this since the list moved to my
>server?  How many times before that?  Something tells me I really should make
>this a forking FAQ on the list.  :/

Well, it's all just part of the great circle of life.  It seems to me
there have been one or two 'discussions' about HTML mail on this list
before as well.  I'll have to go through my archives for the list and
see if I can't dredge up some fresh 'previous topics of intense
interest' for recycling.<g>

Ralph

rpcohen@neurotron.com

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 00:08:47 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:08:47 -0800
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <20000328230433.RIGK13052.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@CC892959-A>
References: <20000328230433.RIGK13052.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@CC892959-A>
Message-ID: <19631.000328@rpglink.com>

Tuesday, March 28, 2000, 3:04:09 PM, Ralph wrote:
> see if I can't dredge up some fresh 'previous topics of intense
> interest' for recycling.<g>

    Aren't we about due for another "Steve Lamb's a complete prick!" thread?
:)

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 00:13:55 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Wendt)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:13:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re[4]: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003281350.IAA00831@bayerfamily.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.4.21.0003281513020.22204-100000@fingers.shocking.com>

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000, Jonathan B. Bayer wrote:

> >New feature for service release of PMMail.  :)
> 
> 
> Not needed.  Just set up a filter which looks for some HTML tags, and
> send an auto-reply.  Works, no need to make the program any more
> complicated than it already is.

I just meant include that filter in the next release.  Of course, it's not
really a "new feature."  But it would be if this were M$.

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 00:19:01 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:19:01 -0800
Subject: Email Line Lengths
In-Reply-To: <200003282236.RAA27856@email.nist.gov>
References: <200003282236.RAA27856@email.nist.gov>
Message-ID: <12638.000328@rpglink.com>

Tuesday, March 28, 2000, 2:44:48 PM, Michael wrote:
> I wonder how many people that _really_ represents, world-wide, in
> these days of OS/2, Windows-Whatever, Macintosh, Acorn and
> X-Windows?

    All of which are perfectly capable of terminal level mail readers.  :P

> Indenting each line of a quote and then wrapping the resulting line to fit
> an outgoing length is what causes the erratic line lengths that Dr. Race was
> just complaining about (q.v.).

    On his non-standard display.  Do you see my lines ever do that no matter
what level of quoting they are?  :)

> messages just don't have any logical consistency. P'aps best discussed over
> a beer. After Lent.

    They do have logical consistency; here it is.  It was accepted a long time
ago that the 80 character width was the standard display.  It harms none to
have a larger display that is unused (GUI people can shrink the window and
have more screen real estate for other things) and those with less, well, can
deal with it in their own way.  So, for the ability to communicate we accept
that convention.

    A lot of the assumptions a great many email clients are built upon, a lot
of editors are built upon, a lot of the logic they are coded with are based on
that simple decision on the technical limitations of the time.  A limitation
that really doesn't need to be broken.

    Hell, you haven't brought out some of the more imaginative arguments I've
hard.  I think the best was that messages really should be, what was it, 66
characters wide because that is what books are printed to to prevent the eyes
from having to scan to far back and forth.  ;)

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 01:20:36 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Larry Ebbitt)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:20:36 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <20000328154516.VQAZ3543.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>
Message-ID: <E12a6Dt-00016G-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:44:52 +0200 (CED), Alexander Sarras wrote:

>Triple charges?

If I were broke, and then I'd hate myself for giving in.

Larry  -  Atlanta / OS/2

DISCLAIMER:  In the case that I contradicted something else I said 
in this or some other post, the verbiage that is correct will override 
the incorrect verbiage and the incorrect verbiage will be void!

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 01:22:59 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Larry Ebbitt)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:22:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003281555.KAA10427@email.nist.gov>
Message-ID: <E12a6GB-0001Ay-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:04:00 -0500, Michael Baum wrote:

>Yes, it's very important not to challenge 
>things on the net with a 17-year tradition 
>behind them. That would be bad.

Especially not when they operate to the benefit of anyone
with an IQ that's recordable.

Larry  -  Atlanta / OS/2

DISCLAIMER:  In the case that I contradicted something else I said 
in this or some other post, the verbiage that is correct will override 
the incorrect verbiage and the incorrect verbiage will be void!

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 01:25:06 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Larry Ebbitt)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:25:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <20000328162353.VSDM3543.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>
Message-ID: <E12a6IE-0001Ey-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:23:36 +0200 (CED), Alexander Sarras wrote:

>There are tools and there are fools.

Well said.  Hear, hear!

Larry  -  Atlanta / OS/2

DISCLAIMER:  In the case that I contradicted something else I said 
in this or some other post, the verbiage that is correct will override 
the incorrect verbiage and the incorrect verbiage will be void!

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 01:51:26 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (John Angelico)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:51:26 +0900 (EST)
Subject: [OT] Benefits of OSs was Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003282202.AAA22265@beavis.fx.ro>
Message-ID: <E12a5lp-00010k-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 00:57:32 +0300, Cristian Secara wrote:

>On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:40:25 -0500, Jonathan B. Bayer wrote:
>
>>Run the Win-16 version of Opera in a Win-OS2 session.  Works pretty
>>well.
>
>... or use WinNT and run the 32bit Opera ... :P
>
>Excuse me, but what's then the 'benefit' of using OS/2 ?

I suggest that you could find out the benefits by doing this:

>
>... or use WinNT and run the 32bit Opera ... :P

Best regards
John Angelico
OS/2 SIG
Melbourne PC User Group Inc.
Email: talldad@melbpc.org.au or talldad@kepl.com.au
--------------------------------------------------------------------

PMTagline v1.50 - Copyright, 1996-1997, Stephen Berg and John Angelico
... "That explains everything! But it doesn't help at all."

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 03:02:30 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Larry Ebbitt)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 21:02:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003282219.SAA26255@jupiter.accesscable.net>
Message-ID: <E12a7oX-0001QI-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:19:20 -0400 (AST), Trevor Smith wrote:

>If you want to delete HTML messages along with sending a canned
>reply, just delete the messages, or do something else, play around
>with the various "Actions" that PMMail/2's filters offer.

Thank you, Trevor.  This will overcome my laziness.  I shall put
it to good use.

Larry  -  Atlanta / OS/2

DISCLAIMER:  In the case that I contradicted something else I said 
in this or some other post, the verbiage that is correct will override 
the incorrect verbiage and the incorrect verbiage will be void!

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 03:11:13 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Wendt)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:11:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <19631.000328@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003290253.SAA10752@fingers.shocking.com>

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:08:47 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>    Aren't we about due for another "Steve Lamb's a complete prick!" thread?

I thought it was "arrogant prick."  :)

-----------
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly,
while bad people will find a way around the laws."
     - Plato (427-347 B.C.)

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 04:07:04 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Jim Nuytens)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 03:07:04 +0000
Subject: Email Line Lengths
In-Reply-To: <200003282037.PAA25677@email.nist.gov>
Message-ID: <200003290305.DAA15400@magpage.com>

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:45:41 -0500, Michael Baum wrote:

>This is obviously some meaning of "standard" with which I am
>unacquainted. 

Oh, please! Let's not get "cute".

>No specific line length seems to be enforced by the mail
>protocols save the ~1000 byte limit that Mr. Wood cites, and 
>I assume 1000 is too long for you. 

Just goes to show what you don't know and what happens when you assume.
I never said or hinted that 1000 was too long for me. It (again) comes
down to being a bit more considerate of others to accept the
convention, even if you don't agree with it. It's called getting along
with others.

On a positive note; I see you've changed your messages. Thank you for
at least that much.

>Standard? Please.

As Steve pointed out (and I'll be happy to correct myself on this one
point), it's more of a convention than a standard. That one I'll give
you. The rest of what I said I still stand by.

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 04:10:10 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Ralph Cohen)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:10:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <19631.000328@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <20000329031012.WLWI13052.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@CC892959-A>

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:08:47 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>Tuesday, March 28, 2000, 3:04:09 PM, Ralph wrote:
>> see if I can't dredge up some fresh 'previous topics of intense
>> interest' for recycling.<g>
>
>    Aren't we about due for another "Steve Lamb's a complete prick!" thread?
>:)
>

No, no, Steve.  Don't you remember we spun that off into a new mailing
list back in November?  I've got the t-shirt here somewhere...<g>

Ralph

rpcohen@neurotron.com

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 06:33:19 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Alexander Sarras)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 07:33:19 +0200 (CED)
Subject: Re[4]: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003282202.AAA10239@beavis.fx.ro>
Message-ID: <20000329104423.CMP22979.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 01:04:59 +0300, Cristian Secara wrote:

> On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:38:54 -0500, Jonathan B. Bayer wrote:
> 
> >>New feature for service release of PMMail.  :)
> >Not needed.  Just set up a filter which looks for some HTML tags, and
> >send an auto-reply.
> 
> Just curious - how can you do that for an unknown sender ?
> The filter action for 'replay' suppose a known recipient that has to be
> manually entered.
> Are the predefined variables working into that field ? ($h.fromid$ for
> example)
> 
Trash it anyway?! I gather you're talking about SPAM. Can't imagine any
other "anonymous" email, at least to me.
SaS
-- 
       Dr. Alexander Sarras         |     * Trouble * IS my middle name!
  www.sarras.at     mail@sarras.at  |           The TroubleShooter
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 06:36:20 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Alexander Sarras)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 07:36:20 +0200 (CED)
Subject: Email Line Lengths
In-Reply-To: <19572.000328@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <20000329104439.CNL22979.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:45:00 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

> > I'm sorry, this is just supposed to be gibberish, right?
> 
>     Pardon Alexander, sometimes I feel his English, which I gather is not his
> native tongue, doesn't lend to smooth communication.  I'm sure that if English
> weren't my mother tongue I would be quite a bit more incomprehensible than I
> normally am.  I do know that my Esperanto leaves a lot to be desired.  ;)

Danx. ;->

Apart from that, it really gets under my skin at the moment, 'cause we've a
couple of intelligent idiots at the institute who insist on using Nestcape
as installed. Brrrr.
SaS
-- 
       Dr. Alexander Sarras         |     * Trouble * IS my middle name!
  www.sarras.at     mail@sarras.at  |           The TroubleShooter
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 06:41:13 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Alexander Sarras)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 07:41:13 +0200 (CED)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003282219.SAA26255@jupiter.accesscable.net>
Message-ID: <20000329104444.CNR22979.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:19:20 -0400 (AST), Trevor Smith wrote:

> OK, for those who wanted a filter for HTML email, here it is. This
> one is very basic so I questioned whether I should even post it but I
> guess some people might not have known how to do the following. This
> filter should catch any HTML email from Netscape. Does IE use a
> different "content-type" line? I don't know. I'll check later tonight
> when I boot to Windows.
> 
> [...]
> If you want to delete HTML messages along with sending a canned
> reply, just delete the messages, or do something else, play around
> with the various "Actions" that PMMail/2's filters offer.
> 
This is the, after a long time of trying it friendly, rather rude (TM)
canned reply, I use:

> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Since I have to pay for the time used to download email sent to me, I 
> can't, won't or will ever read html-formated email. It wastes a lot of 
> time and bandwidth, and doessn't conform to standards.
> 
>   *********************************************************************
>   ***  HTML-BASED EMAIL WILL BE REJECTED WITHOUT EVER BEING SEEN BY ***
>   *** USERS ON THIS SYSTEM  !!!                                     ***
>   *********************************************************************
> 
> If you want to contact anybody here, set your mailer for non-HTML email.
> If you are not capable of doing this, ask someone who is.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Though, huh? But it works!
SaS
-- 
       Dr. Alexander Sarras         |     * Trouble * IS my middle name!
  www.sarras.at     mail@sarras.at  |           The TroubleShooter
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 07:35:47 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Marty Abrego)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:35:47 -0800
Subject: TZ... Again (OT)
Message-ID: <E12aC4y-0002Fq-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:08:18 +0000 (GMT), Simon Bowring wrote:

>The short answer is:
>
>set TZ=gmt0bst,3,-1,0,7200,10,-1,0,10800,3600
>
>The long answer is:
>
>The TZ environment variable controls how...

Excellent!  That's exactly what I was looking for. Thank you.

Do you know when OS/2 uses the the TZ variable to actually *change*
the time??  I've never seen it work in all the years I've run it. 
Using Timekeeper/2, set to adjust the clock every 30 minutes, I'm
hoping that it will be a non-manual process this year.

                  \\|//
  Marty Abrego    (o o)    "Bases are better covered than asses."    
 -------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo---------------------------------------
  photon@qnet.com                                - Mr. Realtime

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 08:36:25 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Marty Abrego)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 23:36:25 -0800
Subject: Life after PMMail
Message-ID: <E12aD5Z-0002RC-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:43:23 -0500, Michael Baum wrote:

>>>Nice 140 character lines BTW!
>>
>>ROFL!
>
>???
>
>I must have deleted the doubtlessly extensive list discussion on line-length etiquette without reading or noting it. I noticed, of course,  that you made this comment in your reply to my original note, but I decided, mindful of the value of time to both of us, to ignore it as an unexplained datum. Tha' understand, I don't get out much. Anyway, Mr. Morrison implies that it's a real thigh-slapper.
>
>Why is that? I generally reflow messages on sending to some very long string length on the theory that the reader's mail client can happily wrap them to fit whatever size message window it currently has open. It avoids that annoying comb-tooth text effect when a mail program has inserted hard carriage returns every so often to enforce a particular line length which happens to be longer than the width of my default message window.
>
>I collect this is Not The Done Thing? Why?

Oh, no!  Now the FLAME WAR will really be on...

Personally, I'm with you -- I can read the quoted paragraph with only
one quote mark just fine.  But you will find as many vocal opponents
as not.

                  \\|//
  Marty Abrego    (o o)       "It is difficult to free fools from    
 -------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo---------------------------------------
  photon@qnet.com             the chains they revere." - Voltaire

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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 08:39:09 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Marty Abrego)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 23:39:09 -0800
Subject: Life after PMMail
Message-ID: <E12aD6g-0002SR-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 07:35:04 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>In short, don't question it, just comply...

Eh?  "Resistance is futile"??

                  \\|//
  Marty Abrego    (o o)       "It is difficult to free fools from    
 -------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo---------------------------------------
  photon@qnet.com             the chains they revere." - Voltaire

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 10:45:31 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Alexander Sarras)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:45:31 +0200
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <19631.000328@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003290946.LAA0000029305@balin.ap.univie.ac.at>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:08:47 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>Tuesday, March 28, 2000, 3:04:09 PM, Ralph wrote:
>> see if I can't dredge up some fresh 'previous topics of intense
>> interest' for recycling.<g>
>
>    Aren't we about due for another "Steve Lamb's a complete prick!" thread?
>:)
>
Which, in due course, will end at the 'strained pinky'-argument, which
I still found no translation for ;->
SaS
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=laqB
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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 10:46:04 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Alexander Sarras)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:46:04 +0200
Subject: Re[4]: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.4.21.0003281513020.22204-100000@fingers.shocking.com>
Message-ID: <200003290947.LAA0000029479@balin.ap.univie.ac.at>

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On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:13:55 -0800 (PST), Steve Wendt wrote:

>On Tue, 28 Mar 2000, Jonathan B. Bayer wrote:
>
>> >New feature for service release of PMMail.  :)
>> 
>> 
>> Not needed.  Just set up a filter which looks for some HTML tags, and
>> send an auto-reply.  Works, no need to make the program any more
>> complicated than it already is.
>
>I just meant include that filter in the next release.  Of course, it's not
>really a "new feature."  But it would be if this were M$.
>
Hardcoded?
SaS

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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 11:16:39 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Simon Bowring)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:16:39 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: TX Revisited [Oh No!] [was Re: TZ... Again (OT)]
In-Reply-To: <E12aC4y-0002Fq-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003290916.KAA17271@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:35:47 -0800, Marty Abrego wrote:

>>set TZ=gmt0bst,3,-1,0,7200,10,-1,0,10800,3600

It's been pointed out to me that this string is wrong (thanks
Brian Morrison!).

Apparently the UK does not change time at 02:00, but at 01:00! 

Nearly all UK based computer systems I have worked on are configured
to change at 02:00 as the TZ string I published.

However, according to http://greenwich2000.com/time/info/bst.htm,
it starts at 1 am ("this week"):

If correct, and I assume it must be, the TZ string should be:

  Set TZ=gmt0bst,3,-1,0,3600,10,-1,0,7200,3600

Note the difference (exactly when the clock changes) is not likley 
to be significant for 99.999% of all computers!

Simon
---

GMT - Greenwich Mean Time

Frequently Asked Questions

When will British Summer Time (BST) be in force?

The Summer Time Act 1972 defined the period of British Summer Time to
start at 2 am (GMT) on the morning of the day after the third Saturday in
March or, if that was Easter Day, the day after the second Saturday. It was
to end at 2 am (GMT) on the day after the fourth Saturday in October.

The duration of British Summer Time (BST) can be varied by Order of
Council and in recent years has been changed so as to bring the date of
the start of Summer Time into line with that used in Europe.

The rule for 1981-1994 defined the start of Summer Time as the
last Sunday in March and the end as the day following the fourth
Saturday in October. The time of change was altered to 1 am
(GMT).

There is no rule for the dates of Summer Time (BST) for the years 1995,
1996 and 1997.

The agreed dates were:

     For 1995 BST started on March 26 and ended on October 22

     For 1996 BST started on March 31 and ended on October 27

     For 1997 BST started on March 30 and ended on October 26

     In 1996 all clocks in Europe were changed the same date for the first time.

From 1998 BST will be kept from the last Sunday in March until the last
Sunday in October. This has been adopted as a directive from the
European Parliament and will be effective from 1998-2001 inclusive.

     1999: March 28 - October 31

     2000: March 26 - October 29

     2001: March 25 - October 28

     All changes to be at 1 am GMT. 

Source: Royal Observatory Greenwich 

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 11:27:25 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Larry Ebbitt)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 05:27:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003290253.SAA10752@fingers.shocking.com>
Message-ID: <E12aFh8-00035d-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:11:13 -0800 (PST), Steve Wendt wrote:

>I thought it was "arrogant prick."  :)

Wouldn't "complete" include "arrogant?"

Larry  -  Atlanta / OS/2

DISCLAIMER:  In the case that I contradicted something else I said 
in this or some other post, the verbiage that is correct will override 
the incorrect verbiage and the incorrect verbiage will be void!

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 11:34:16 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Larry Ebbitt)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 05:34:16 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <20000329031012.WLWI13052.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@CC892959-A>
Message-ID: <E12aFnm-0003A7-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:10:10 -0500 (EST), Ralph Cohen wrote:

>No, no, Steve.  Don't you remember we spun that off into a new mailing
>list back in November?  I've got the t-shirt here somewhere...<g>

Gee, I'm glad y'all are friends.

All wiyht.  Rho sritched mg kegtops awound?

Larry - OS/2 - Atlanta

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 12:25:42 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Simon Bowring)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:25:42 +0100 (BST)
Subject: TZ... Again (OT)
Message-ID: <200003291639.RAA19832@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>

>This is an interesting statement. If this is the case and OS/2
>commands *never* affect the realtime clock, then how are time changes
>persistent from boot to boot? 

ARRGG!! Sorry! I don't know what I was thinking.  Of course you 
are correct, and I am completely wrong, the time command etc 
obviously does (and must) set the RTC!!!!

I hope you all accept my grovelling apologies!  I guess I'm 
just in argumentative mode this week!

However, OS/2 really, really doesn't change the clock across
daylight savings time changes, honest - but I would not
expect you to beleive me now!!

Windows does, OS/2 doesn't!

Simon

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 13:43:27 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (David Gaskill)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 13:43:27 +0100
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
Message-ID: <E12aHoq-0000s4-00@mserv1a.u-net.net>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 07:41:13 +0200 (CED), Alexander Sarras wrote:

>This is the, after a long time of trying it friendly, rather rude (TM)
>canned reply, I use:
>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Since I have to pay for the time used to download email sent to me, I 
>> can't, won't or will ever read html-formated email. It wastes a lot of 
>> time and bandwidth, and doessn't conform to standards.

I realise that posting this will probably result in you, Steve and half the 
other members of the mailing list clubbing together to put out a contract 
on me but I feel like living dangerously today... 

Here in the UK, as in your country, local calls are charged. The exact 
charge depends upon the time of day but is never more than a few US 
cents a minute. There is in any case a minimum charge of approximately 
8 US cents. 

On my 56 K modem the difference in cost to download an Ascii e-mail 
and an html formatted e-mail would be a tiny fraction of the cost of the 
cup of coffee I am drinking as I compose this. 

Your message could not of course be used by those that live in the 
States where there is no charge for local calls. 

The bandwidth and standards issue seems to be something of a holy war 
rather than a logical argument. The anti-html e-mail crusade appears to 
have as its objective the preservation of civilisation as we know it and 
the sanctity of standards. (Next perhaps "TCPIP is an abomination - all 
right-thinking citizens use Morse"). 

If the Internet is about to collapse under the rising tide of html e-mail 
sending rude messages to those that use it is not likely to change the 
course of history. 

The fact is that more and more people are using html e-mail. It is also a 
fact that Internet transmission times are in general falling not rising. The 
provision of bandwidth is getting ever cheaper. 

To advocate sending automatic rude responses to those that address you 
using a format of which should disapprove seems to me to be about as 
sensible as tearing up a letter written on a luxurious paper on the 
grounds that this will preserve the rain forests. 

An increasing amount of my business is Internet dependent and an 
increasing proportion of e-mails I receive are in html format. (I consider 
it courteous and hence good for business to reply in the same format). 
You seem to be suggesting that I should reduce myself to penury by 
insulted  my clients simply to preserve the purity of Internet standards. 

I wonder who I phone to obtain 24 hour police protection ...

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 14:09:07 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 05:09:07 -0800
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <E12aHoq-0000s4-00@mserv1a.u-net.net>; from david@cgaski.u-net.com on Wed, Mar 29, 2000 at 01:43:27PM +0100
References: <E12aHoq-0000s4-00@mserv1a.u-net.net>
Message-ID: <20000329050907.A13870@rpglink.com>

On Wed, Mar 29, 2000 at 01:43:27PM +0100, David Gaskill wrote:
> On my 56 K modem the difference in cost to download an Ascii e-mail 
> and an html formatted e-mail would be a tiny fraction of the cost of the 
> cup of coffee I am drinking as I compose this. 

    Economics of scale.  1 message with an extra 12k of crap isn't much.  400
messages of an extra 12k is a lot.  Something approaching a Mb which is, what,
15 minutes on your modem?  Now, multiply that per day and you get a nice sum
of, oh, an extra $4-5/month for you.  

    For what?  No added functionality at all and, generally, a complete
waste.

> The bandwidth and standards issue seems to be something of a holy war 
> rather than a logical argument. The anti-html e-mail crusade appears to 
> have as its objective the preservation of civilisation as we know it and 
> the sanctity of standards. (Next perhaps "TCPIP is an abomination - all 
> right-thinking citizens use Morse"). 

    The point is just because it is there doesn't mean there is a use for it.
There is a clear difference between TCP/IP and morse code, a clear
technological advancement.  There is, quite simiply, NONE, when it comes to
HTML in email.  

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 14:22:15 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Alexander Sarras)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:22:15 +0200
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <20000329050907.A13870@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003291323.PAA0000012705@balin.ap.univie.ac.at>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 05:09:07 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>On Wed, Mar 29, 2000 at 01:43:27PM +0100, David Gaskill wrote:
>> On my 56 K modem the difference in cost to download an Ascii e-mail 
>> and an html formatted e-mail would be a tiny fraction of the cost of =
the 
>> cup of coffee I am drinking as I compose this. 
>
>    Economics of scale.  1 message with an extra 12k of crap isn't much=
.  400
>messages of an extra 12k is a lot.  Something approaching a Mb which is=
, what,
>15 minutes on your modem?  Now, multiply that per day and you get a nic=
e sum
>of, oh, an extra $4-5/month for you.  
>
>    For what?  No added functionality at all and, generally, a complete=

>waste.
> 
>> The bandwidth and standards issue seems to be something of a holy war=

>> rather than a logical argument. The anti-html e-mail crusade appears =
to 
>> have as its objective the preservation of civilisation as we know it =
and 
>> the sanctity of standards. (Next perhaps "TCPIP is an abomination - a=
ll 
>> right-thinking citizens use Morse"). 
>
>    The point is just because it is there doesn't mean there is a use f=
or it.
>There is a clear difference between TCP/IP and morse code, a clear
>technological advancement.  There is, quite simiply, NONE, when it come=
s to
>HTML in email.  
>
Nothing much to add, but to things:

1.  when doing only email on a 28.8 Modem and getting only 20% of
HTML-mail, it almost doubles the cost (did it for me, in fact, so if
you enjoy that I'll print this on a nice colorful paper put it in a 2kg
parcel and send it to you label "postage paid by recipient", Maybe
everyone on that list who=B4s opposed to HTML-mail should join in ;->)

2. I never ever had to put out a contract. Normally I get paid for
taking them ;->

SaS
- -- 
       Dr. Alexander Sarras         |     * Trouble * IS my middle name!=

  www.sarras.at     mail@sarras.at  |           The TroubleShooter
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------=

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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 15:10:23 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Simon Bowring)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:10:23 +0100 (BST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <E12aHoq-0000s4-00@mserv1a.u-net.net>
Message-ID: <200003291410.PAA08624@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 13:43:27 +0100, David Gaskill wrote:

>On my 56 K modem the difference in cost to download an Ascii e-mail 
>and an html formatted e-mail would be a tiny fraction of the cost of the 
>cup of coffee I am drinking as I compose this. 
Fine, your calculations are absolutely correct if and only if you only 
ever receive one single HTML email ever!  

i.e. I think you're the one using flawed logic!

>The bandwidth and standards issue seems to be something of a holy war 
>rather than a logical argument.
What is illogical about: "HTML mails are bigger and therefore consume 
more bandwidth"? 

What is illogical about trying to make users (and more importantly 
rogue and irresponisble mail program authors like MS and NS) comply 
with the standards that allow inter-working on the net?  

These authors are consciously and deliberately trying to gain market
position by implementing features beyond any standards, so that people 
will use their product in preference to another. But "their product" 
is typically only available under Windows (or a restricted set of 
platforms), thus breaking any chance of proper standards-conformant 
inter-working between people (unless they run Windows, and use 
Outlook).

This leave competitors like Blueprint et al in the impossible 
position of having market pressure put on them by consumers to 
implement broken non-standardised features - how are they going
to design what features are required without a standard to act as
a definition to work from?

Sadly, anyone can (and quite a few do) chuck out any old junk as an 
email (or ftp, or news etc) program.  There are no conformancy tests 
and associated "badge" for such products, as there are for compilers, 
low-level network protocols and such things as Java etc.  This is
a shame!

This argument is only happening because both MS and NS have implemented 
a series of embrace-and-extend features (in email, news and browsers), 
simply to fill their own coffers and "spoil" their competitors' products. 
Of course it's coincidental that the bulk of these company's users are not 
very computer literate and would never know what features are standard or 
not, and so forgivably they use them, unkowingly furthering the cause 
of MS or NS, and helping to splinter the internet into different 
communities with different capabilities.

So, yes, this is a "holy war" - it's about allowing the internet 
to continue to be goverened by open standards, not dictated by MS, 
NS, IBM or any other single corporation, so that even non-windows 
users may use the internet (shocking I know!). It's even about 
non-windows users being able to talk to windows users (Huh? why would
they want to do that?).  It's about the internet being hardware 
and software *agnostic*. i.e. it's about standards!

Many of us have seen MS use the same techniques to create a
virtual monopoly in Word Processors, office apps, and desktop
operating systems, despite often delivering inferior technology.
We don't wan't the internet to go the same way, and we're not 
going down without a fight!

>(Next perhaps "TCPIP is an abomination - all right-thinking citizens use Morse"). 
Would that be a bit more of your "logic"?

Simon

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 15:25:34 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Larry Ebbitt)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:25:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <E12aHoq-0000s4-00@mserv1a.u-net.net>
Message-ID: <E12aJPg-00041F-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 13:43:27 +0100, David Gaskill wrote:

>I wonder who I phone to obtain 24 hour police protection ...

Send them an HTML e-mail.  They might be able to figure it out.

Larry  -  Atlanta / OS/2

DISCLAIMER:  In the case that I contradicted something else I said 
in this or some other post, the verbiage that is correct will override 
the incorrect verbiage and the incorrect verbiage will be void!

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 15:30:19 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (John Angelico)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 23:30:19 +0900 (EST)
Subject: TZ... Again (OT)
In-Reply-To: <E12aC4y-0002Fq-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <E12aIYs-0003oQ-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:35:47 -0800, Marty Abrego wrote:

>
>Excellent!  That's exactly what I was looking for. Thank you.
>

Ditto.

>Do you know when OS/2 uses the the TZ variable to actually *change*
>the time??  I've never seen it work in all the years I've run it. 
>Using Timekeeper/2, set to adjust the clock every 30 minutes, I'm
>hoping that it will be a non-manual process this year.
>

I checked my TZ last week just before we changed back from DS time (Eastern Australia).

Worked like a charm! I only noticed it because I had "automatically" reset time in System Clock too far back - to 
Standard time.

Next time I looked I had lost an hour instead of gaining one. Oops - fixed System clock and presto - all OK!

Best regards
John Angelico
OS/2 SIG
Melbourne PC User Group Inc.
Email: talldad@melbpc.org.au or talldad@kepl.com.au
--------------------------------------------------------------------

PMTagline v1.50 - Copyright, 1996-1997, Stephen Berg and John Angelico
... Melbourne, Victoria: the world's most livable city!

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 15:33:20 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (John Angelico)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 23:33:20 +0900 (EST)
Subject: [OT] Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <E12aD6g-0002SR-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <E12aIax-0003sI-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 23:39:09 -0800, Marty Abrego wrote:

>On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 07:35:04 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:
>
>>In short, don't question it, just comply...
>
>Eh?  "Resistance is futile"??
>
Of course - we can only hope that Eddie the shipboard computer on the Starship Heart of Gold doesn't run Windows. 
However, I wouldn't bet on it, since the essence of the vessel's operation is *un-predictability*

Best regards
John Angelico
OS/2 SIG
talldad@melbpc.org.au or talldad@kepl.com.au
--------------------------------------------

PMTagline v1.50 - Copyright, 1996-1997, Stephen Berg and John Angelico
... What do you do with a manically depressed Robot?

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 15:43:23 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Jonathan B. Bayer)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:43:23 -0500
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003282202.AAA22265@beavis.fx.ro>
Message-ID: <200003291455.JAA03215@bayerfamily.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 00:57:32 +0300, Cristian Secara wrote:

>On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:40:25 -0500, Jonathan B. Bayer wrote:
>
>>Run the Win-16 version of Opera in a Win-OS2 session.  Works pretty
>>well.
>
>... or use WinNT and run the 32bit Opera ... :P
>
>Excuse me, but what's then the 'benefit' of using OS/2 ?

All your other OS/2 programs.  Opera lets you ignore the buggy Netscape
on OS/2.

JBB
- --
ICQ # 44910403
Power Listviewer URL:   http://www.bigfoot.com/~PowerListviewer
PMMail Archiver URL:    http://www.bigfoot.com/~Jonathan_Bayer/archiver

For PGP Public key block/Fingerprint send the following message to me as the Subject:
        Send PGP Signature

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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 15:45:44 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Jonathan B. Bayer)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:45:44 -0500
Subject: PMMail 3000 - The Answer
In-Reply-To: <200003281852.UAA14202@m1smtpsp02.wanadoo.es>
Message-ID: <200003291457.JAA03226@bayerfamily.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:53:00 +0200, xavier caballe wrote:

>
>I'm affraid I won't live enough to see PMMail 3000... :)

I don't know.  With the way Internet time seems to be accelerating, I
would hope to see PMMail 3000 by 2010 :-)
- ---
How do they ever find out that the maximum number of people for this
elevator is twenty-two? I mean do they get into the elevator and
do some experiments:
"Twenty-one people. Still OK."
"Twenty-two people. Still OK."
"Twenty-three people. Aaaahhhhh............."

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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 15:54:53 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Simon Bowring)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:54:53 +0100 (BST)
Subject: TZ... Again (OT)
In-Reply-To: <E12aIYs-0003oQ-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003291454.PAA11996@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>

>Do you know when OS/2 uses the the TZ variable to actually *change*
>the time??  
Oh, no, no, no. No it doesn't, and is not supposed to!

>I've never seen it work in all the years I've run it. 
Indeed, for the good and well reasoned argument stated above ;-)

OS/2 does not ever adjust your PC's hardware clock ("realtime clock"
or RTC), neither does it ever change it's internal "software" 
clock that is initialised from the RTC at boot, and then
subsequently maintained independently of the RTC while OS/2
is up and running. OS/2 Commands that set the time, affect only
this independent software clock, and NOT the realtime clock.

There is no API in OS/2 to set the real CMOS RTC!

<pedantic>
*OS/2* doesn't really use TZ at all, many of it's *applications*
(including the tcp/ip apps shipped), use TZ to calculate UTC/GMT 
from the local time AND to allow them to know when daylight savings 
time comes into and goes out of effect. Thus such apps are able to 
"know" or display the "complete" time and date including the 
timezone name and whether daylight savings time is currently in 
effect or not.
</pedantic>

So, after a time change, one ought to go into the BIOS setup 
(the next convenient reboot will do) and set the RTC to the 
correct local time (i.e. what your watch says!).  

Changes using the "time" or "net time" commands or from packages 
such as DST switch (and probably timekeeper/2 - I've not seen it),
do *not* get saved to the hardware clock. So you should do this 
regardless of running DST switch etc (but check your timekeeper/2
docs to be sure).

Many OS/2 users knowingly or unknowingly synchronise their OS/2 
clock with that of a server - it's done on every netware login
for example.  

Provided the server is set-up ok, this is fine and will keep your clock 
accurate (at the next sync).

If you have a correctly configured server (NT, OS/2 or Unix running 
samba) available, then you can schedule a:

   "net time \\server_name /set /y" 

command to run every night at 01:01 and 02:01. This will remove 
the need for timekeeper/2 or DST switch (but you need a scheduler 
program)!

Simon

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 15:58:38 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Simon Bowring)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:58:38 +0100 (BST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <E12aJPg-00041F-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003291458.PAA12163@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:25:34 -0500 (EST), Larry Ebbitt wrote:

>>I wonder who I phone to obtain 24 hour police protection ...
>
>Send them an HTML e-mail.  They might be able to figure it out.

Send them an HTML e-mail.  They ought to be able to arrest you ;-)

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 16:25:38 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (David Gaskill)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:25:38 +0100
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
Message-ID: <E12aKNZ-0003Hj-00@mserv1a.u-net.net>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:22:15 +0200, Alexander Sarras wrote:

>Nothing much to add, but to things:
>
>1.  when doing only email on a 28.8 Modem and getting only 20% of
>HTML-mail, it almost doubles the cost 

Twice a very little is still not a lot. The fees I can expect to receive 
from a single html e-mail using client would enable me to buy several 
56 K modems and satisfy my coffee requirements until I draw my 
pension.

(did it for me, in fact, so if
>you enjoy that I'll print this on a nice colorful paper put it in a 2kg
>parcel and send it to you label "postage paid by recipient", Maybe
>everyone on that list who s opposed to HTML-mail should join in ;->)
>
>2. I never ever had to put out a contract. Normally I get paid for
>taking them ;->

This is worse than my worst nightmares. Not only will my house 
disappear beneath coloured paper parcels and the Post Office will seek 
to have me declared bankrupt but I am being hunted by a professional 
hit man ... 

David

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 16:26:09 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (David Gaskill)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:26:09 +0100
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
Message-ID: <E12aKNa-0003Hj-00@mserv1a.u-net.net>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 05:09:07 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>  Economics of scale.  1 message with an extra 12k of crap isn't much.  400
>messages of an extra 12k is a lot.  Something approaching a Mb which is, what,
>15 minutes on your modem?  Now, multiply that per day and you get a nice sum
>of, oh, an extra $4-5/month for you. 

Actually I get less than a tenth the number of e-mails that you receive but 
nevertheless if I use Alexander's message not only can I get rid of all those 
bothersome clients but the 40 or 50 cents that I save will enable me to have one 
and possibly two extra cups of coffee every month! 
>
>    For what?  No added functionality at all and, generally, a complete
>waste.

But some of my clients like it. Some of my clients use of English is appalling but I 
don't tell them to go away and redraft the document before I will look at it. I find 
that if I am nice to my clients that they will pay me money.

>> The bandwidth and standards issue seems to be something of a holy war 
>> rather than a logical argument. The anti-html e-mail crusade appears to 
>> have as its objective the preservation of civilisation as we know it and 
>> the sanctity of standards. (Next perhaps "TCPIP is an abomination - all 
>> right-thinking citizens use Morse"). 
>
>    The point is just because it is there doesn't mean there is a use for it.
>There is a clear difference between TCP/IP and morse code, a clear
>technological advancement.  There is, quite simiply, NONE, when it comes to
>HTML in email.

Some might argue that the increased ability to format makes it easier for those that 
are not familiar with the conventions to read but whether or not that is true is 
beside the point. If somebody chooses to send me an e-mail with coloured text this 
doesn't seem to me to be sufficient grounds to refuse to read it and send him a rude 
message.  

David

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 16:48:24 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Brian Morrison)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:48:24 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003281437.JAA15521@email.nist.gov>
Message-ID: <E12aXHL-0000Y2-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:46:06 -0500, Michael Baum wrote:

>On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 06:14:46 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:
>
>>    Because as you can see above, most email clients do the correct thing and
>>preserve line length when quoting.  Now you have a paragraph with one quote
>>marker.
>
>And this is bad because?

It makes it harder to tell who quoted what. If I see a line not
preceded by a > that is obviously quoted, I mark the poster down in my
little black book.

- -- 

Brian Morrison                                  bdm@fenrir.demon.co.uk

 "Almost noon, and she had yet to go the launderette in Concreton to 
 thaw out chickens in the spin-drier..."

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= C7 12 B9 54 00 0F 51 F6  37 9B 18 D1 E1 61 14 0B

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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 16:52:53 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Alexander Sarras)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:52:53 +0200 (CED)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <E12aKNZ-0003Hj-00@mserv1a.u-net.net>
Message-ID: <20000329155314.KTN22979.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:25:38 +0100, David Gaskill wrote:

> 
> Twice a very little is still not a lot. The fees I can expect to receive 
> from a single html e-mail using client would enable me to buy several 
> 56 K modems and satisfy my coffee requirements until I draw my 
> pension.
Difference is: You get paid for reading html-mail (?), I'm in a completely
different line of work. Processing emails is just a part of my job and I
can't put them on a bill.
SaS
-- 
       Dr. Alexander Sarras         |     * Trouble * IS my middle name!
  www.sarras.at     mail@sarras.at  |           The TroubleShooter
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 16:59:50 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 07:59:50 -0800
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003291410.PAA08624@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>
References: <200003291410.PAA08624@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8333.000329@rpglink.com>

Wednesday, March 29, 2000, 6:10:23 AM, Simon wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 13:43:27 +0100, David Gaskill wrote:

>>On my 56 K modem the difference in cost to download an Ascii e-mail 
>>and an html formatted e-mail would be a tiny fraction of the cost of the 
>>cup of coffee I am drinking as I compose this. 
> Fine, your calculations are absolutely correct if and only if you only 
> ever receive one single HTML email ever!  

> i.e. I think you're the one using flawed logic!

    Which, if "everyone" used HTML, would not be the case.

> Sadly, anyone can (and quite a few do) chuck out any old junk as an
> email (or ftp, or news etc) program.  There are no conformancy tests 
> and associated "badge" for such products, as there are for compilers, 
> low-level network protocols and such things as Java etc.  This is
> a shame!

    Actually, there is for newsreaders.  It is called the Good Net-Keeping
Seal of Approval (GNKSA).  It is a series of tests performed on newsreaders
and they are given a percentage score based on how well they perform on those
tests.  Not that any layperson would know about the GNKSA, much less the
ratings of different news clients.

    I was thinking of making one for email clients called the SMS (Sane Mail
System) but I'm kind of putting it off since it would be heavily biased by my
conception of what email clients should be.  To put it another way, /no/
client that currently exists would meat the SMS standards.  ;)

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 17:03:56 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:03:56 -0800
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <E12aKNa-0003Hj-00@mserv1a.u-net.net>
References: <E12aKNa-0003Hj-00@mserv1a.u-net.net>
Message-ID: <7336.000329@rpglink.com>

Wednesday, March 29, 2000, 7:26:09 AM, David wrote:
> Some might argue that the increased ability to format makes it easier for
> those that are not familiar with the conventions to read but whether or not
> that is true is beside the point.

    David, it is not possible to format in HTML.  It certainly isn't possible
to format in any manner that would have 2 clients render it in an identical
fashion.  You must remember that email clients only offer a /very/ limited
subset of HTML and none of it offers any formatting above and beyond what you
can do with plain ASCII.

    To put it another way, it takes HTML 4.0 to use CSS and absolute
positioning.  Yet the two largest 4.0 browsers, IE and NS, cannot even agree
on how to implement it.  Therefore HTML pages which use the latest 4.0 tags
look radically different on the two major browsers.

    That is not formatting at all.

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 17:11:56 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Trevor Smith)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:11:56 -0400 (AST)
Subject: TZ... Again (OT)
Message-ID: <200003291513.LAA00450@jupiter.accesscable.net>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:54:53 +0100 (BST), Simon Bowring wrote:

>or RTC), neither does it ever change it's internal "software" 
>clock that is initialised from the RTC at boot, and then
>subsequently maintained independently of the RTC while OS/2
>is up and running. OS/2 Commands that set the time, affect only
>this independent software clock, and NOT the realtime clock.

This is an interesting statement. If this is the case and OS/2
commands *never* affect the realtime clock, then how are time changes
persistent from boot to boot? Or how, when I change my clock in OS/2,
do the changes also appear when I boot to Win98?

I think you must be mistaken. Surely the OS/2 commands update the RTC
too.

Or maybe does OS/2 change the RTC, based on its internal "software"
clock at shutdown? This seems unwise because traps could possibly
mess things up if the software clock had been changed.

>So, after a time change, one ought to go into the BIOS setup 
>(the next convenient reboot will do) and set the RTC to the 
>correct local time (i.e. what your watch says!).  
>
>Changes using the "time" or "net time" commands or from packages 
>such as DST switch (and probably timekeeper/2 - I've not seen it),
>do *not* get saved to the hardware clock. So you should do this 

AHA! Finally, I've proved you wrong! :-)

I just changed my time on my OS/2 system by typing "time" at a
command line and entering an arbitrary time (5:05). I shut down OS/2
and entered my system's BIOS setup and voila! the system's RTC was
reading 5:05.

OK, so what is the explanation? Did I misunderstand your instructions
above? 

Seriously, I'm a bit puzzled at your statements. If they were true,
there would be no way for a standalone computer to ever retain, from
one boot to the next, time changes made in OS/2.

-- 
 Trevor Smith          |          trevor@haligonian.com
 PGP public key available at: www.haligonian.com/trevor

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= A68C C4EC C163 5C0A 6CFA  671F 05D4 0B30 318B AFD6

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 17:13:42 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Simon Bowring)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:13:42 +0100 (BST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <E12aKNa-0003Hj-00@mserv1a.u-net.net>
Message-ID: <200003291613.RAA18100@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:26:09 +0100, David Gaskill wrote:

>Some might argue that the increased ability to format
They might, but they'd be making incorrect assumptions
about the nature of HTML, and the nature of HTML
support in email programs in particular.

You see, you don't (and can't) know what HTML tags are 
supported by the remote end, neither do you know how
they are implemented, because HTML is deliberately vague 
about this (was designed to present information, NOT
to specify formatting), so as the person who started this 
thread found out, HTML support between email packages varies
(no standard to work to remember, so there's no choice
about this!).

So, the formatting you carefully craft when you compose your 
HTML message will not be rendered the same by the person 
recieving the email at the other end UNLESS they use the same 
brand and similar version of mailer!

Different email programs will more or less closely approximate 
what you intended [whereas if there was a standard, they could 
render the email more-or-less identically]

The *only* way to guarantee layout in email is to use plain text, 
manually laid-out/wrapped using a non-proportional font, all in 
a STANDARDS CONFORMANT email program (HTML or no HTML)!

Simon

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 17:17:59 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Simon Bowring)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:17:59 +0100 (BST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <8333.000329@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003291618.RAA18305@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>

>    Actually, there is for newsreaders.  It is called the Good Net-Keeping
>Seal of Approval (GNKSA).  It is a series of tests performed on newsreaders
>and they are given a percentage score based on how well they perform on 
those
>tests.  Not that any layperson would know about the GNKSA, much less the
>ratings of different news clients.

Indeed, I thought there was something like this for email too.

I meant a proper test against international standards which
would have to pass to some level in order to be called say an
"internet email package" on the box and in the advertising etc.

Simon

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 18:17:02 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:17:02 -0800
Subject: The foo and the bar
Message-ID: <12386.000329@rpglink.com>

    Don't mind me, just testing to see if archiving of messages works.  If so
we might have searchable HTML indexes of the mailing list here shortly.
Shhhh, don't tell anyone.

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 18:27:17 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Alexander Sarras)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:27:17 +0200 (CED)
Subject: The foo and the bar
In-Reply-To: <12386.000329@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <20000329172735.LQX22979.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:17:02 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>     Don't mind me, just testing to see if archiving of messages works.  If so
> we might have searchable HTML indexes of the mailing list here shortly.
> Shhhh, don't tell anyone.
> 
And a FAQ, and Steve's Ranting List, and the Troublesome Asshole Page, and
maybe even a "strained pinky" background image ???

SaS
-- 
       Dr. Alexander Sarras         |     * Trouble * IS my middle name!
  www.sarras.at     mail@sarras.at  |           The TroubleShooter
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 18:28:02 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Jim Hruska)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:28:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Crash in PMMail
Message-ID: <200003291726.MAA13344@smtp.cisnet.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I'm having a problem with PMMail, and I don't know if anyone who can do
anything about it is listening or not, but I figured I'd start out by
telling the list and seeing if anyone else sees the same thing.

The problem is that if I open a message in a folder, then go back to
the main PMMail window and change folders, then go back to the message
and click the "Delete and next" or "Delete and previous" button (the
red up and down arrows), it crashes pmmail (as long as I'm not back in
the same folder).  The last version of PMMail would delete the open
message, and not open a new one... but now it crashes.

I'm using PMMail/2 version 2.10.1999.  

Anyone else seeing this?

Thanks,

Jim H

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= 7171 AEDE 9DD5 868B 0589  0FF8 2120 DC50 825C F884

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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 18:52:44 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Larry Ebbitt)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:52:44 -0500 (EST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003291458.PAA12163@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>
Message-ID: <E12aMeD-0005Qq-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:58:38 +0100 (BST), Simon Bowring wrote:

>Send them an HTML e-mail.  They ought to be able to arrest you ;-)

Even better!

Larry  -  Atlanta / OS/2

DISCLAIMER:  In the case that I contradicted something else I said 
in this or some other post, the verbiage that is correct will override 
the incorrect verbiage and the incorrect verbiage will be void!

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 18:58:41 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Larry Ebbitt)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:58:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: TZ... Again (OT)
In-Reply-To: <200003291639.RAA19832@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>
Message-ID: <E12aMjp-0005VN-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:25:42 +0100 (BST), Simon Bowring wrote:

>I hope you all accept my grovelling apologies! 

You're forgiven, but don't let it happen again <g>.

Larry  -  Atlanta / OS/2

DISCLAIMER:  In the case that I contradicted something else I said 
in this or some other post, the verbiage that is correct will override 
the incorrect verbiage and the incorrect verbiage will be void!

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 18:59:37 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Larry Ebbitt)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:59:37 -0500 (EST)
Subject: The foo and the bar
In-Reply-To: <12386.000329@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <E12aMkk-0005Y4-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:17:02 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>Shhhh, don't tell anyone.

Mum's the word.

Larry  -  Atlanta / OS/2

DISCLAIMER:  In the case that I contradicted something else I said 
in this or some other post, the verbiage that is correct will override 
the incorrect verbiage and the incorrect verbiage will be void!

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 19:00:33 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Larry Ebbitt)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 13:00:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: The foo and the bar
In-Reply-To: <20000329172735.LQX22979.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>
Message-ID: <E12aMlg-0005dC-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:27:17 +0200 (CED), Alexander Sarras wrote:

>And a FAQ, and Steve's Ranting List, and the Troublesome Asshole Page, and
>maybe even a "strained pinky" background image ???

Greedy?

Larry  -  Atlanta / OS/2

DISCLAIMER:  In the case that I contradicted something else I said 
in this or some other post, the verbiage that is correct will override 
the incorrect verbiage and the incorrect verbiage will be void!

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 19:02:32 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (James Dye)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:02:32 -0600 (CST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003291613.RAA18100@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200003291802.MAA17107@corn.cso.niu.edu>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:13:42 +0100 (BST), Simon Bowring wrote:

|The *only* way to guarantee layout in email is to use plain text, 
|manually laid-out/wrapped using a non-proportional font, all in 
|a STANDARDS CONFORMANT email program (HTML or no HTML)!

You cannot guarantee that the recipient will be using a fixed-width font 
any more than you can guarantee they use the same browser.

James Dye, Chair
Program Committee
27th Hume Conference
http://www.philosophy.niu.edu/~phildept/Hume

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 19:13:37 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Alexander Sarras)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:13:37 +0200 (CED)
Subject: The foo and the bar
In-Reply-To: <E12aMlg-0005dC-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <20000329181359.MBE22979.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 13:00:33 -0500 (EST), Larry Ebbitt wrote:

> On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:27:17 +0200 (CED), Alexander Sarras wrote:
> 
> >And a FAQ, and Steve's Ranting List, and the Troublesome Asshole Page, and
> >maybe even a "strained pinky" background image ???
> 
> Greedy?
> 
  ;->
Noooope.
Then I would not only have asked for a "All the Things We Got And Did'nt
Want", but also for a "All those Tricks We wanted And Didn't Get" - List!

SaS
-- 
       Dr. Alexander Sarras         |     * Trouble * IS my middle name!
  www.sarras.at     mail@sarras.at  |           The TroubleShooter
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 19:18:24 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Trevor Smith)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:18:24 -0400 (AST)
Subject: Crash in PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003291726.MAA13344@smtp.cisnet.com>
Message-ID: <200003291817.OAA29587@jupiter.accesscable.net>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:28:02 -0500 (EST), Jim Hruska wrote:

>The problem is that if I open a message in a folder, then go back to
>the main PMMail window and change folders, then go back to the message
>and click the "Delete and next" or "Delete and previous" button (the
>red up and down arrows), it crashes pmmail (as long as I'm not back in
>the same folder).  The last version of PMMail would delete the open
>message, and not open a new one... but now it crashes.

Unfortunately, I was also getting this crash regularly at one time,
but now it no longer happens. I'mnot sure why.

I am running v2.10.2010 but I do not think that is why it works now
(I believe it started working properly before I upgraded to
2.10.2010).

Still, you can try upgrading and see if that helps.

-- 
 Trevor Smith          |          trevor@haligonian.com
 PGP public key available at: www.haligonian.com/trevor

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= A68C C4EC C163 5C0A 6CFA  671F 05D4 0B30 318B AFD6

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 19:21:07 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Trevor Smith)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:21:07 -0400 (AST)
Subject: TZ... Again (OT)
In-Reply-To: <200003291639.RAA19832@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200003291820.OAA00478@jupiter.accesscable.net>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:25:42 +0100 (BST), Simon Bowring wrote:

>ARRGG!! Sorry! I don't know what I was thinking.  Of course you 
>are correct, and I am completely wrong, the time command etc 
>obviously does (and must) set the RTC!!!!
>
>I hope you all accept my grovelling apologies!  I guess I'm 
>just in argumentative mode this week!

Ah, it's nice to be right once in a while. :-)

>However, OS/2 really, really doesn't change the clock across
>daylight savings time changes, honest - but I would not
>expect you to beleive me now!!

You are completely correct about this, of course. This is one of the
reasons why OS/2 *SHOULD* have a TZ environment variable built in and
why it should expect the RTC to run in UT.

Unfortunately, the folks who built OS/2 thought copying DOS was "good
enough". Instead they should have copied Unix.

-- 
 Trevor Smith          |          trevor@haligonian.com
 PGP public key available at: www.haligonian.com/trevor

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= A68C C4EC C163 5C0A 6CFA  671F 05D4 0B30 318B AFD6

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 19:22:50 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Alexander Sarras)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:22:50 +0200 (CED)
Subject: Crash in PMMail
In-Reply-To: <200003291726.MAA13344@smtp.cisnet.com>
Message-ID: <20000329182309.MDE22979.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:28:02 -0500 (EST), Jim Hruska wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> I'm having a problem with PMMail, and I don't know if anyone who can do
> anything about it is listening or not, but I figured I'd start out by
> telling the list and seeing if anyone else sees the same thing.
> 
> The problem is that if I open a message in a folder, then go back to
> the main PMMail window and change folders, then go back to the message
> and click the "Delete and next" or "Delete and previous" button (the
> red up and down arrows), it crashes pmmail (as long as I'm not back in
> the same folder).  The last version of PMMail would delete the open
> message, and not open a new one... but now it crashes.
> 
> I'm using PMMail/2 version 2.10.1999.  
> 
> Anyone else seeing this?
>
Had that same, don't know about deleting and up or down, it /worked/ for me
with just move up or down. So I just don't switch folders anymore before
I'm done. REported it even to Southsoft then but got no response.... Found
out that they where just switching...

;-<
SaS 

-- 
       Dr. Alexander Sarras         |     * Trouble * IS my middle name!
  www.sarras.at     mail@sarras.at  |           The TroubleShooter
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 19:24:36 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Alexander Sarras)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:24:36 +0200 (CED)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003291802.MAA17107@corn.cso.niu.edu>
Message-ID: <20000329182453.MDK22979.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:02:32 -0600 (CST), James Dye wrote:

> On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:13:42 +0100 (BST), Simon Bowring wrote:
> 
> |The *only* way to guarantee layout in email is to use plain text, 
> |manually laid-out/wrapped using a non-proportional font, all in 
> |a STANDARDS CONFORMANT email program (HTML or no HTML)!
> 
> You cannot guarantee that the recipient will be using a fixed-width font 
> any more than you can guarantee they use the same browser.
> 
But that's _easily_ fixed. OTOH, you can't even guarantee him to be using
the latin alphabet or even reading email, can you. in every possible case?
SaS
-- 
       Dr. Alexander Sarras         |     * Trouble * IS my middle name!
  www.sarras.at     mail@sarras.at  |           The TroubleShooter
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 19:26:12 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Trevor Smith)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:26:12 -0400 (AST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003291613.RAA18100@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200003291825.OAA02155@jupiter.accesscable.net>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:13:42 +0100 (BST), Simon Bowring wrote:

>The *only* way to guarantee layout in email is to use plain text, 
>manually laid-out/wrapped using a non-proportional font, all in 
>a STANDARDS CONFORMANT email program (HTML or no HTML)!

No, this is not correct.

For the same (accurate) reasons you give that HTML formatted email
can not be guaranteed to look the same on the receiving end as they
do to the sender, plain text email can not be guaranteed to look the
same to the sender and receiver either -- even if you use a
non-proportional font.

The reason is just like HTML -- you have no control over and no idea
how the receiver's client works. Does it display the font the sender
specifies or does it display in the font the receiver specifies? I'm
sure you realize that many email clients display in whatever font the
receiver specifies.

Mine, for example, is currently using a proportional font. Therefore,
your messages to me may not be laid out the way you intended them,
even in plain text.

I'm not arguing for HTML email -- I think rich text markup is a good
idea but I also agree we need standards, not "embrace and extend"
monopolization. However, we don't have a standard that anyone is
adhering to with plain text if you consider that different clients
are allowing users to set fonts.

-- 
 Trevor Smith          |          trevor@haligonian.com
 PGP public key available at: www.haligonian.com/trevor

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= A68C C4EC C163 5C0A 6CFA  671F 05D4 0B30 318B AFD6

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 19:27:39 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Trevor Smith)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:27:39 -0400 (AST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003291802.MAA17107@corn.cso.niu.edu>
Message-ID: <200003291826.OAA02597@jupiter.accesscable.net>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:02:32 -0600 (CST), James Dye wrote:

>You cannot guarantee that the recipient will be using a fixed-width font 
>any more than you can guarantee they use the same browser.

Hmm... that's what I just said, except you managed to make the same
point in about 1000 less bytes. :-)

-- 
 Trevor Smith          |          trevor@haligonian.com
 PGP public key available at: www.haligonian.com/trevor

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= A68C C4EC C163 5C0A 6CFA  671F 05D4 0B30 318B AFD6

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 19:43:30 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Jonathan B. Bayer)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 13:43:30 -0500
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003291825.OAA02155@jupiter.accesscable.net>
Message-ID: <200003291855.NAA03679@bayerfamily.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:26:12 -0400 (AST), Trevor Smith wrote:

>For the same (accurate) reasons you give that HTML formatted email
>can not be guaranteed to look the same on the receiving end as they
>do to the sender, plain text email can not be guaranteed to look the
>same to the sender and receiver either -- even if you use a
>non-proportional font.
>
>The reason is just like HTML -- you have no control over and no idea
>how the receiver's client works. Does it display the font the sender
>specifies or does it display in the font the receiver specifies? I'm
>sure you realize that many email clients display in whatever font the
>receiver specifies.

I disagree.  If you and the receiver are both using non-proportional
fonts, then the layout will be identical as long as the receiver
doesn't wrap the lines.

You only run into problems if one or the other (or both) are using
proportional fonts.

Yes, many clients (including PMMail) allow the user to specify the
font.  BUT, if you say in the first line of your message that the user
needs to use a non-proportional font in order to view the message
properly, then you at least have a better chance of the message looking
the same to the receiver as the writer intended it to look.

JBB
- --
ICQ # 44910403
Power Listviewer URL:   http://www.bigfoot.com/~PowerListviewer
PMMail Archiver URL:    http://www.bigfoot.com/~Jonathan_Bayer/archiver

For PGP Public key block/Fingerprint send the following message to me as the Subject:
        Send PGP Signature

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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 19:44:37 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Jonathan B. Bayer)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 13:44:37 -0500
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003291802.MAA17107@corn.cso.niu.edu>
Message-ID: <200003291856.NAA03689@bayerfamily.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:02:32 -0600 (CST), James Dye wrote:

>You cannot guarantee that the recipient will be using a fixed-width font 
>any more than you can guarantee they use the same browser.

No, but you can specify the need for a fixed width font at the
beginning of the message.

JBB
- --
ICQ # 44910403
Power Listviewer URL:   http://www.bigfoot.com/~PowerListviewer
PMMail Archiver URL:    http://www.bigfoot.com/~Jonathan_Bayer/archiver

For PGP Public key block/Fingerprint send the following message to me as the Subject:
        Send PGP Signature

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 (C) 1997-1999 Network Associates, Inc. and its affiliated companies.

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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 20:15:31 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:15:31 -0800
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <E12aNtn-0004Bf-00@mrvdom01.schlund.de>
References: <E12aNtn-0004Bf-00@mrvdom01.schlund.de>
Message-ID: <7469.000329@rpglink.com>

Wednesday, March 29, 2000, 2:12:56 PM, S.Stroh wrote:
>>Excuse me, but what's then the 'benefit' of using OS/2 ?
> To run WinNT in OS/2 Window

    No, that would be "To run WinNT in an XWindows window on Linux."

    Mmmmmm, VMWare.  ;)

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 20:37:43 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Alexander Sarras)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:37:43 +0200 (CED)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <E12aO7M-0006fK-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <20000329193802.MTZ22979.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:43:46 +0200, gomez wrote:

> 
> but there are to *too many* people that open *anything* 
> virus included............ ;)

Do tell, last year I had to de-bug the PC at our institute 5 times (!). And
believe it or not, it was always the same Word.macro.virus !! The time
before the last time I disconnected floppies but those smart assed users
who didn't want to believe _they_ imported it at the last two times went,
got a notebook, linked it up to our network, and emailed one (1)
word-attachment (voila, 15 machines hit, 7 caught the virus again). So I
went and when cleaning two certain systems those HDs got corrupted, sorry!

SaS
-- 
       Dr. Alexander Sarras         |     * Trouble * IS my middle name!
  www.sarras.at     mail@sarras.at  |           The TroubleShooter
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 21:03:37 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Rene Christian Stepanek)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:03:37 +0200 (CDT)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <7469.000329@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <OF45C6DBDB.C723600D-ON412568B1.006E3836@rcs-technology.at>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:15:31 -0800, pmmail-bounce@rpglink.com wrote:

>Wednesday, March 29, 2000, 2:12:56 PM, S.Stroh wrote:
>>>Excuse me, but what's then the 'benefit' of using OS/2 ?
>> To run WinNT in OS/2 Window
>
>    No, that would be "To run WinNT in an XWindows window on Linux."
>
>    Mmmmmm, VMWare.  ;)
>

No, that's "To run WinNT (running in VMWare on Linux)
in an XWindows window on the OS/2 WPS!!!

Mit freundlichen Gruessen
Kind regards

_____________________________________________________________________________

R C S - T E C H N O L O G Y                                     Rene Stepanek
_____________________________________________________________________________

Network & System Solutions

Kastelicgasse 7
A-3100 St. Poelten
Tel. & Fax : +43 2742 258238
Email: rene.stepanek@rcs-technology.at
_____________________________________________________________________________

          Cholera95 ist out! Nehmen Sie doch Pest98 stattdessen!

_____________________________________________________________________________

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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 21:17:56 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:17:56 -0800
Subject: The foo and the bar
In-Reply-To: <E12aOp6-000720-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
References: <E12aOp6-000720-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <1512.000329@rpglink.com>

Wednesday, March 29, 2000, 2:43:55 PM, yellow wrote:
> This OS/2 system uptime is 0d 1h 20m 13s 195ms (en).

    *cough*

{morpheus@teleute:~} uptime
 12:17pm  up 23 days, 19:07,  5 users,  load average: 1.05, 1.11, 1.09

    Let's not go there.  ;)

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 21:39:20 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Jonathan B. Bayer)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:39:20 -0500
Subject: The foo and the bar
In-Reply-To: <1512.000329@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003292051.PAA03913@bayerfamily.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:17:56 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>{morpheus@teleute:~} uptime
> 12:17pm  up 23 days, 19:07,  5 users,  load average: 1.05, 1.11, 1.09

Well, last time I checked my file server had over 60 days of uptime.

JBB
- --
ICQ # 44910403
Power Listviewer URL:   http://www.bigfoot.com/~PowerListviewer
PMMail Archiver URL:    http://www.bigfoot.com/~Jonathan_Bayer/archiver

For PGP Public key block/Fingerprint send the following message to me as the Subject:
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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 21:57:04 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Trevor Smith)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:57:04 -0400 (AST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003291855.NAA03679@bayerfamily.net>
Message-ID: <200003292056.QAA21141@jupiter.accesscable.net>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 13:43:30 -0500, Jonathan B. Bayer wrote:

>I disagree.  If you and the receiver are both using non-proportional
>fonts, then the layout will be identical as long as the receiver
>doesn't wrap the lines.

That's what I said. You can't control whether the recipient is using
a non-proportional font. In fact, you can't control whether they have
their message reading window set to 47 characters wide either.

>font.  BUT, if you say in the first line of your message that the user
>needs to use a non-proportional font in order to view the message
>properly, then you at least have a better chance of the message looking
>the same to the receiver as the writer intended it to look.

Sure you have a better chance, but you're not guaranteed anything.
That's what the conversation was about, plain text "guaranteeing"
predictable layout rendering.

In fact, there *should* be some standard for email that has the
sender specify a header line indicating what font is used (or at
least if it's proportional or not) and what line length is used. Then
the receiver's client could respect those settings.

*THAT* would be a standard and *THAT* would guarantee that
standards-compliant clients would all render tihngs in a predictable
way.

Plain text in itself doesn't achieve this.

-- 
 Trevor Smith          |          trevor@haligonian.com
 PGP public key available at: www.haligonian.com/trevor

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= A68C C4EC C163 5C0A 6CFA  671F 05D4 0B30 318B AFD6

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 21:58:14 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Trevor Smith)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:58:14 -0400 (AST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003291856.NAA03689@bayerfamily.net>
Message-ID: <200003292057.QAA21519@jupiter.accesscable.net>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 13:44:37 -0500, Jonathan B. Bayer wrote:

>No, but you can specify the need for a fixed width font at the
>beginning of the message.

As much as I agree that a *real* rich text standard is needed, using
your above logic, I can specify in the beginning of a message that
"Netscape HTML rendering" is needed and let the receiver's client
worry about it.

-- 
 Trevor Smith          |          trevor@haligonian.com
 PGP public key available at: www.haligonian.com/trevor

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= A68C C4EC C163 5C0A 6CFA  671F 05D4 0B30 318B AFD6

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 22:48:52 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Dave Liquorice)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:48:52 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: TZ... Again
In-Reply-To: <200003270908.KAA25709@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200003292048.VAA059.52@nexus.demon.co.uk>

On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:08:18 +0000 (GMT), Simon Bowring wrote:

> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:08:18 +0000 (GMT)
> X-Mailer: PMMail 2.10.1999 for OS/2 Warp 4.00
<snip>
> set TZ=gmt0bst,3,-1,0,7200,10,-1,0,10800,3600

And I see that it doesn't work...

I expect it will after this coming Sunday (2nd April) though. Just like 
it did last year. Digging through my Sent folder I find that this failed 
last spring as well, never did get round to reporting it as a bug. 

Who takes bug reports now? Additional info: It appears that it is only a 
problem in the UK, possibly the zero offset for "winter" time confuses 
things.

> Daylight saving time starts at 2:00 on the last Sunday of March and 
> ends at 2:00 on the last Sunday of October (EC standard).  Time 
> changes by one hour in daylight saving time:
>
> SET TZ=gmt0bst,3,-1,0,7200,10,-1,0,10800,3600
                 March  
                   Last
                      Sunday
                        0200
                             October
                                Last
                                   Sunday
                                     0300
                                           1 hour change    

  SET TZ=GMT0BST,3,-1,0,3600,10,-1,0,7200,3600

Is what I have ie BST starts at 0100 ("time" leaps from 0100 to 0200) 
and ends at 0200 ("time" leaps from 0200 back to 0100). I think this is 
correct the 0300 bit in yours sounds decidedly iffy...

Cheers
Dave.

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 23:06:19 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (David Gaskill)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 23:06:19 +0100
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <7336.000329@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <E12aQdf-0000lK-00@mserv1a.u-net.net>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:03:56 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>> Some might argue that the increased ability to format makes it easier for
>> those that are not familiar with the conventions to read but whether or not
>> that is true is beside the point.
>
>    David, it is not possible to format in HTML.  It certainly isn't possible
>to format in any manner that would have 2 clients render it in an identical
>fashion.  You must remember that email clients only offer a /very/ limited
>subset of HTML and none of it offers any formatting above and beyond what you
>can do with plain ASCII.

Steve, 

Most of the html e-mail that I receive uses bold and italic and different text sizes and 
colours to distinguish blocks of text. The sender does not do this to make it look 
pretty but to aid comprehension. 

Of course you are right when you say that this can be done in Ascii using the 
various e-mail conventions but it is certainly true that the use of colour and text 
emphasis can aid clarity. 

When I respond I follow the format that the writer has used. This makes it easy for 
him to understand and it seems to me that it would be rude and pointless to reply in 
Ascii using > / * etc. So far as I am aware  those to whom I respond in this manner 
are able to read the html that PMMail generates. 

I never initiate any correspondence in anything other than Ascii, not because of 
considerations of ideological purity but because I can't be sure, as you point out, that 
it will appear in the recipient's e-mail client in the same way as it does in PMMail. 

I correspond with a variety of people and businesses in many different countries and 
the amount of html e-mail I receive is slowly but steadily increasing. Used in the 
manner I have described html can make e-mails quicker and easier to comprehend; 
it's not essential but neither is it totally worthless. 

Unlike many on this mailing list my businesses is not  IT or computer related except 
in so far as the machine to which I am dictating this is as vital to me as a chisel is to 
a mason. 

Incidentally I believe that the chisels that masons use these days are made from 
chrome vanadium steel and I don't expect many of them cling to the hand forged 
carbon steel variety ...

David

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 23:08:42 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:08:42 -0800
Subject: The foo and the bar
In-Reply-To: <E12aPYW-0007Vd-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
References: <E12aPYW-0007Vd-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <11589.000329@rpglink.com>

Wednesday, March 29, 2000, 3:59:06 PM, yellow wrote:
> Normally i use this only for automatic Messages from my
> Server to me.

> Sorry ;)

> "Ivanova is always right. I will listen to Ivanova.^I will not ignore
> Ivanova's recommendations.^Ivanova is God. And, if this ever happens
> again,^Ivanova will personally rip your lungs out!" - Susan Ivanova,
> "Babylon 5"

    Mmmmm, B5 quote.  You're forgiven.  ;)

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 23:12:56 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (S.Stroh aka 'Yellow')
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:12:56 -0100
Subject: Life after PMMail
Message-ID: <E12aNtn-0004Bf-00@mrvdom01.schlund.de>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 00:57:32 +0300, Cristian Secara wrote:

>On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:40:25 -0500, Jonathan B. Bayer wrote:
>
>>Run the Win-16 version of Opera in a Win-OS2 session.  
Works pretty
>>well.
>... or use WinNT and run the 32bit Opera ... :P
or try to run the OS/2 Port of the 32bit Opera with is 
comming. 

>Excuse me, but what's then the 'benefit' of using OS/2 ?
To run WinNT in OS/2 Window

>Best wishes,
>	Cristi

SCNR Yellow

-- 
Don't ask the people what MS can do for you.^ Look at OS/2 what OS/2 has for you! 
This OS/2 system uptime is 0d 0h 49m 13s 765ms (en).
-- 

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 23:24:18 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:24:18 -0800
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <E12aQdf-0000lK-00@mserv1a.u-net.net>
References: <E12aQdf-0000lK-00@mserv1a.u-net.net>
Message-ID: <1600.000329@rpglink.com>

Wednesday, March 29, 2000, 2:06:19 PM, David wrote:
> Most of the html e-mail that I receive uses bold and italic and different
> text sizes and colours to distinguish blocks of text. The sender does not do
> this to make it look pretty but to aid comprehension.

    Funny, books have been pretty darn comprehensible for years with simple
black on white, ~60 characters wide.  I don't buy the comprehension schtick
one bit.  You want your message to be comprehensible, a spell checker and a
few courses in remedial English (assuming that is the language used) go a lot
further than blinking hot pink on yellow text.  Trust me on this.

> Used in the manner I have described html can make e-mails quicker and easier
> to comprehend; it's not essential but neither is it totally worthless.

    Nope, it does not.  It gives that illusion.  However, if a person is using
purdy culers and kewl fawnts doesn't mean they are any more comprehensible
than before.  In fact, I would dare say it is the other way around.

    It really is a common mistake.  Did you know that the advent of the word
processor did not magically impart the ability to write a decent paper onto
the hundreds of thousands of executives across the nation?  I know it hasn't,
my mother is still employed in the same profession she always has and is as
busy as ever correcting the simple mistakes in grammar, punctuation and
spelling those high-paid executives hammer into their word processors.  If
Microsoft Word, Corel's WordPerfect or even Star Office isn't making these
individuals any clearer with all the formatting, stylizing and coloring
available in a full blown word processor I really do doubt that *BOLD*,
/italics/, _underlines_, bulleted lists, centering and colors is going to do
it in email, either.  Meanwhile all it will do is serve to give these
individuals a false sense that they are clarifying when they are, in fact,
obfuscating.

> Incidentally I believe that the chisels that masons use these days are made
> from chrome vanadium steel and I don't expect many of them cling to the hand
> forged carbon steel variety ...

    Yet it still does one thing only and has not changed form or function much
through the years.  Text, too, has changed very little in the same time frame.
Just because it has now become convenient for people to colorize and stylize
text doesn't mean it automatically becomes clearer nor that it /should/ be
done at all.  Quite frankly, none of the individuals wielding these tools are
word masons of any note and I'd much rather the understand the basic tools of
the trade before graduating to something more complex.

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Wed Mar 29 23:43:55 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (yellow)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:43:55 -0100
Subject: The foo and the bar
Message-ID: <E12aOp6-000720-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:27:17 +0200 (CED), Alexander Sarras 
wrote:

>On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:17:02 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:
>
>>     Don't mind me, just testing to see if archiving of 
messages works.  If so
>> we might have searchable HTML indexes of the mailing list 
here shortly.
>> Shhhh, don't tell anyone.
>> 
>And a FAQ, and Steve's Ranting List, and the Troublesome 
Asshole Page, and
>maybe even a "strained pinky" background image ???
Hmmm an Best of Thread List? For the flames like :
"Death Knell for OS/2 Client"

Seen this for the German PHP Mailinglist.
Funny :)

Sven
--

Macht es Sinn zu versuchen OS/2 zum abst�rtzen zu bringen,^ nur um es allen zu beweisen??
This OS/2 system uptime is 0d 1h 20m 13s 195ms (en).
--------------------------------------------------
S.Stroh DCF and REXX Development

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 00:34:43 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (yellow)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:34:43 -0100
Subject: Life after PMMail
Message-ID: <E12aPAs-0007C1-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:15:31 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>Wednesday, March 29, 2000, 2:12:56 PM, S.Stroh wrote:
>>>Excuse me, but what's then the 'benefit' of using OS/2 ?
>> To run WinNT in OS/2 Window
>
>    No, that would be "To run WinNT in an XWindows window on 
Linux."
>
>    Mmmmmm, VMWare.  ;)
>
 Bochs/2 or better ODIN

Sven
--

Breaking Windows isn't just for kids anymore.
--------------------------------------------------
S.Stroh DCF and REXX Development

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 00:59:06 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (yellow)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:59:06 -0100
Subject: The foo and the bar
Message-ID: <E12aPYW-0007Vd-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:17:56 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>Wednesday, March 29, 2000, 2:43:55 PM, yellow wrote:
>> This OS/2 system uptime is 0d 1h 20m 13s 195ms (en).
>
>    *cough*
>
>{morpheus@teleute:~} uptime
> 12:17pm  up 23 days, 19:07,  5 users,  load average: 1.05, 
1.11, 1.09
>
>    Let's not go there.  ;)
>
ups the wrong sign.
Normally i use this only for automatic Messages from my 
Server to me.

Sorry ;)

Sven
--

"Ivanova is always right. I will listen to Ivanova.^I will not ignore Ivanova's recommendations.^Ivanova is God. And, if this ever happens again,^Ivanova will personally rip your lungs out!" - Susan Ivanova, "Babylon 5"
--------------------------------------------------
S.Stroh DCF and REXX Development

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 02:43:55 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Cristian Secara)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 04:43:55 +0300
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <20000329104444.CNR22979.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>
Message-ID: <200003300141.DAA07309@beavis.fx.ro>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 07:41:13 +0200 (CED), Alexander Sarras wrote:

>> Since I have to pay for the time used to download email sent to me, I 
>> can't, won't or will ever read html-formated email. It wastes a lot of 
>> time and bandwidth, and doessn't conform to standards.

I am subscribed to other mailing lists too, not only PMMail.
One of the list (mountain climbing related) has young subscribers,
probably under age of 25. More than half of them are posting mixed
text/HTML messages, with no reason at all (thanks to Microsoft /
Netscape).
Except for two idiots that are using <FONT SIZE=+4> just for (their)
fun, the others do *nothing* to their text.

In the PMMail_mailing_list sense, I ... I have to do what ?
Unsubscribing ? Declare war to >50% of the ones posting messages ?
Become psychopathic ?
No, except the two (known) rejected users, I simply find more useful to
find out what the list have to share, than loose time with ... nothing.
I find more efficient to accept a (theoretical) increase of the
connection costs, keep almost all messages (including an increasing
HTML e-mail collection), ignore the technical underground *and* find
something *useful* in less than 10% from the overall messages. I have
to give something in exchange for a useful info, do I ?

The big (*BIG*) problem today is finding time for reading (all) my
incoming messages, not the resources needed to bring my messages from
the POP server to my computer ...

Best wishes,
	Cristi

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 03:03:15 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:03:15 -0800
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003300141.DAA07309@beavis.fx.ro>; from secarica@fx.ro on Thu, Mar 30, 2000 at 04:43:55AM +0300
References: <20000329104444.CNR22979.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at> <200003300141.DAA07309@beavis.fx.ro>
Message-ID: <20000329180315.A32660@rpglink.com>

On Thu, Mar 30, 2000 at 04:43:55AM +0300, Cristian Secara wrote:
> In the PMMail_mailing_list sense, I ... I have to do what ?
> Unsubscribing ? Declare war to >50% of the ones posting messages ?
> Become psychopathic ?
> No, except the two (known) rejected users, I simply find more useful to
> find out what the list have to share, than loose time with ... nothing.

    Or ask the list owner if he would have his list server de-htmlize mail
before sending it on.  As in, oh, Listar and how this list is configured.  ;)

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 03:54:33 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Ralph Cohen)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:54:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <20000329180315.A32660@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <20000330025514.TTTE13052.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@CC892959-A>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:03:15 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>
>    Or ask the list owner if he would have his list server de-htmlize mail
>before sending it on.  As in, oh, Listar and how this list is configured.  ;)

Do you mean to say that the fact that there haven't been any HTML
messages posted to this list is not because of the superior
intelligence and good taste of the writers, but rather it's because of
the superior intelligence and good taste of the Listar server?  Hey,
does it have a sister?<g>

Ralph
rpcohen@neurotron.com

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 03:59:30 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:59:30 -0800
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <20000330025514.TTTE13052.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@CC892959-A>
References: <20000330025514.TTTE13052.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@CC892959-A>
Message-ID: <15791.000329@rpglink.com>

Wednesday, March 29, 2000, 6:54:33 PM, Ralph wrote:
> the superior intelligence and good taste of the Listar server?  Hey,
> does it have a sister?<g>

    Well, close.  It will take multi-part messages, take the text part, chuck
the HTML part.  It will still pass through HTML inside non-MIME message.

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 06:19:46 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Alexander Sarras)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 07:19:46 +0200 (CED)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <E12aXHL-0000Y2-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <20000330052005.RHW22979.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:48:24 +0100 (BST), Brian Morrison wrote:

> It makes it harder to tell who quoted what. If I see a line not
> preceded by a > that is obviously quoted, I mark the poster down in my
> little black book.
And then?
SaS
-- 
       Dr. Alexander Sarras         |     * Trouble * IS my middle name!
  www.sarras.at     mail@sarras.at  |           The TroubleShooter
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 07:59:49 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Brian Morrison)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 07:59:49 +0100 (BST)
Subject: TZ... Again
In-Reply-To: <200003292048.VAA059.52@nexus.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <E12atkr-0005Kg-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:48:52 +0000 (GMT), Dave Liquorice wrote:

>And I see that it doesn't work...

Well it does here in PMMail build 2010, and it did in the beta build I
had this time last year. BoB finally fixed the TZ handling in PMMail,
but you have to shut it down and restart it for it to work, and also
make sure you sync to a timeserver using time868 or similar.

>
>I expect it will after this coming Sunday (2nd April) though. Just like 
>it did last year. Digging through my Sent folder I find that this failed 
>last spring as well, never did get round to reporting it as a bug. 

PMINews is broken in this respect, I have a little REXX program to fix
the offset during this week where UK and US DST settings are different.

- -- 

Brian Morrison                                  bdm@fenrir.demon.co.uk

 "Almost noon, and she had yet to go the launderette in Concreton to 
 thaw out chickens in the spin-drier..."

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= C7 12 B9 54 00 0F 51 F6  37 9B 18 D1 E1 61 14 0B

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Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i OS/2 for non-commercial use
Comment: This comment _is_ plain text
Charset: cp850

iQA/AwUBOOL7ZfQTY1HeMuXFEQKWogCfeQSOZPeRFJjNnvzmvuQL6OzM75EAoKxO
N36SC2c24+HLJlvkjvyXh9xX
=Lp/y
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 08:54:03 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Wendt)
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 23:54:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <20000329193802.MTZ22979.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>
Message-ID: <200003300752.XAA23342@fingers.shocking.com>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:37:43 +0200 (CED), Alexander Sarras wrote:

>word-attachment (voila, 15 machines hit, 7 caught the virus again). So I
>went and when cleaning two certain systems those HDs got corrupted, sorry!

Oooh... I'm jealous... I've felt like doing things like that before.  :)

-----------
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly,
while bad people will find a way around the laws."
     - Plato (427-347 B.C.)

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 09:09:30 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Wendt)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 00:09:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <20000330025514.TTTE13052.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@CC892959-A>
Message-ID: <200003300806.AAA24029@fingers.shocking.com>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:54:33 -0500 (EST), Ralph Cohen wrote:

>the superior intelligence and good taste of the Listar server?  Hey,
>does it have a sister?<g>

Now we know Ralph doesn't just go for the airheads... :)

-----------
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly,
while bad people will find a way around the laws."
     - Plato (427-347 B.C.)

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 10:39:59 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Norm)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 04:39:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: TZ... Again (OT)
In-Reply-To: <200003291639.RAA19832@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>
Message-ID: <E12abQr-0005x3-00@dfw-mmp2.email.verio.net>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:25:42 +0100 (BST), Simon Bowring wrote:

>However, OS/2 really, really doesn't change the clock across
>daylight savings time changes, honest - but I would not
>expect you to beleive me now!!
>
>Windows does, OS/2 doesn't!

     IIRC (which is sometimes up for grabs) this is because OS/2
ignores anything after the offset in the 'TZ' environment setting.  It
doesn't consider the longer string in error, but it doesn't do anything
with it either.  If you look at the 'TZ' variable in the online help
you'll also notice that only the offset is mentioned.

--
 ...Cheers,

 ...Norm

***********************************************
* Brought to you by OS/2 Warp v4.0 and PMMail *
* For a copy of my PGP key send me a message  *
* with "send pub_key" in the subject          *
***********************************************

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 13:42:28 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Simon Bowring)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:42:28 +0100 (BST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003291802.MAA17107@corn.cso.niu.edu>
Message-ID: <200003301242.NAA00048@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:02:32 -0600 (CST), James Dye wrote:

>You cannot guarantee that the recipient will be using a fixed-width font 
>any more than you can guarantee they use the same browser.
Ok, I shouldn't have said "guarantee".

You can guarantee that there are many mailers that only support a 
fixed width font, and (almost?) none that can't support a fixed 
width font, and since no two proportional fonts will "layout" the 
same...

... the *only* way to maintain layout in email is to use plain text, 
and manual lay-out using a non-proportional font in the originating 
and receiveing email packages which both need to be STANDARDS 
CONFORMANT (HTML or no HTML).

Hopefully bullet proof now!

Simon

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 13:45:49 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Simon Bowring)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:45:49 +0100 (BST)
Subject: TZ... Again (OT)
In-Reply-To: <200003291820.OAA00478@jupiter.accesscable.net>
Message-ID: <200003301245.NAA00205@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:21:07 -0400 (AST), Trevor Smith wrote:

>You are completely correct about this, of course. This is one of the
>reasons why OS/2 *SHOULD* have a TZ environment variable built in and
>why it should expect the RTC to run in UT.
>
>Unfortunately, the folks who built OS/2 thought copying DOS was "good
>enough". Instead they should have copied Unix.

I agree, although it would have introduced the RTC "creep" problem
on mutiple boot systems with OS/2 and DOS or Windows, because windows
considers the RTC to run in local time too!  

Simon

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 13:47:57 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Simon Bowring)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:47:57 +0100 (BST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003291825.OAA02155@jupiter.accesscable.net>
Message-ID: <200003301248.NAA00338@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:26:12 -0400 (AST), Trevor Smith wrote:

>
>>The *only* way to guarantee layout in email is to use plain text, 
>>manually laid-out/wrapped using a non-proportional font, all in 
>>a STANDARDS CONFORMANT email program (HTML or no HTML)!
>
>No, this is not correct.

Indeed, it's only correct if everyone were to use a non-proportional
font (as God intended ;-).

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 14:50:36 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Dr. Jeffrey Race)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 00 08:50:36 -0500
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
Message-ID: <E12afLM-0001nI-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 04:43:55 +0300, Cristian Secara wrote:
>I find more efficient to accept a (theoretical) increase of the
>connection costs, keep almost all messages (including an increasing
>HTML e-mail collection), ignore the technical underground *and* find
>something *useful* in less than 10% from the overall messages. I have
>to give something in exchange for a useful info, do I ?

This is one approach to life, but there is another viz. to leave the
world a better place than we found it.   If you find people dropping
trash on the public streets you can ignore it, or you can do something
gentle and constructive to fix the problem.  A polite note to the
offenders would help the world and HELP THEM (e.g. to understand the
consequences of their actions, which is always a good thing!). 

That is also something useful in exchange for the info you get.

Jeffrey Race

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 14:57:33 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Simon Bowring)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:57:33 +0100 (BST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
Message-ID: <200003301357.OAA05505@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>

       [This message is best viewed using a non-proportional-font]

>Yes, many clients (including PMMail) allow the user to specify the
>font.  BUT, if you say in the first line of your message that the user
>needs to use a non-proportional font in order to view the message
>properly, then you at least have a better chance of the message looking
>the same to the receiver as the writer intended it to look.

Indeed - just start every email with some "ASCII-art" lettering, that way 
they'll have to switch to one of God's own non-proportional fonts, in
order to read it ;-)

Of course many people have a "cute" ASCII art drawing in their sigs,
If they've used a proportional font to do this, many people viewing
their creations will see, err, "what's the f*$k's that?".  Such
sigs assume that everyone's monospaced!

One of 1000s of good resaons to use mono-spaced fonts ;-) :

                             . ...
                         .''.' .    '.
                    . '' ".'.:I:.'..  '.
                  .'.:.:..,,:II:'.'.'.. '.
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  .::.  .     . . .. ..:. .::.:IIHIIHHHA.  .  .. ..:I:. . .
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:HI:.. . .   .  . .. .::.:I:IHIHIIIHIHIIHHHA..  . .. .::I:. ..
AI:.:.. .  .  .  ... .::.::I:IHIIHIHIHIHIHIHHA. .  . ..::I:. .
HI:. .. . .  .  . .. .:..::IIHIHIHIIIIWHIIHHMWA.  . . .:::I:. . .
HI:.. . .  .   . .. ..:.::I:IIHHIIHIHIHIHHMMW"  '.. . ..:::II: . .
HI::.. .  .   .  .. .:..:::IIHIHIIWIWIIWMWW" .    .. . ..::III: .  .
HI::... . . .  . ... ..:.:::IIHIWIWIWMWMWW. .  .   . .. .:.:III. .   .
II::.:.. . .  .  .. ......:..IHWHIWWMWMW".. . . . . '... .:.:IHI:..    .
II:I::.. .  .   .  . .....::.:IHWMWWWMW:.. .  .  . .  .:..:::IIHII..
:II:.:.:.. .  .   . ......:.:.:IWWMWWW:.:.. .  .  .  . :...:.:IHHI:..
 HI::.:. . . .  .  . ...:.::.::.VWMWW::.:.:.. .  . .. . :.. ..:IHHI::.'-
 HII::.:.. .  .  . .. .:..:.'.  'WWWI::.::.:.. . .  . .. ':...:II:IIII::
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  VII::.:.. . . . .. ...:....      VHI:I::.:.. .  . ... .. .::.:..:.:..:
   VII::.:.. . .  . ..:.::.. .     :HHII:I::.:.. . . .. ..  .'::':......
   III:I::.. .. . . .. .:.:.. .    :VHIHI:I::.:... . . .. .. .':. .. .AH
  AA:II:I::.. . . .  .. ..:.. . .  ::HHIHII:I::.:... .. .. ... .:.::AHHH
 AHH:I:I::.:.. .  . .. ..:.:.. .   ::VHHHVHI:I::.:.:.. ..:. .::.A:.AHHHM
 HHHAII:I::.:.. . . . .. ..:.. . . :::HIHIHIHII:I::.:.. .. .:. ..AHHMMM:
AHHHH:II:I::.:.. . . .. ..:.:.. . .:I:MMIHHHIHII:I:::.:. ..:.:.AHHHMMM:M
HHHHHA:II:I::.. .. . . .. .:... . .:IIVMMMHIHHHIHII:I::. . .. AHHMMMM:MH
HHHHHHA:I:I:::.. . . . ... ..:.. ..:IHIVMMHHHHIHHHIHI:I::. . AHMMMMM:HHH
HHHHHMM:I::.:.. . . . .. ...:.:...:IIHHIMMHHHII:.:IHII::.  AHMMMMMM:HHHH
HHHHHMMA:I:.:.:.. . . . .. ..:.:..:IIHHIMMMHHII:...:::.:.AHMMMMMMM:HHHHH
HHHHHMMMA:I::... . . . . .. ..:.::.:IHHHIMMMHI:.:.. .::AHMMMMMMM:HHHHHHH
VHHHHMMMMA:I::.. . .  . . .. .:.::I:IHHHIMMMMHI:.. . AHMMMMMMMM:HHHHHHHH
 HHHMMMMMM:I:.:.. . .  . . ...:.:IIHIHHHIMMMMMHI:.AHMMMMMMMMM:HHHHHHHHHH
 HHHHMMMMMA:I:.:.. .  .  . .. .:IIHIHHHHIMMMMMH:AMMMMMMMMMMM:HHHHHHHHHHH
 VHHHMMMMMMA:I:::.:. . . . .. .:IHIHHHHHIMMMV"AMMMMMMMMMMMM:HHHHHHHHHHHH
  HHHHHMMMMMA:I::.. .. .  . ...:.:IHHHHHHIM"AMMMMMMMMMMMM:HHHHHHHHHHHHHH
  VHHHHHMMMMMA:I:.:.. . . .  .. .:IHIHHHHI:AMMMMMMMMMMMIHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
   VHHHHHMMMMMA:I::.:. . .  .. .:.:IHHHV:MMMMMIMMMMMMMMMMMMMHHHHHHHHV::.
    VHHHHMMMMMMA:::.:..:.. . .. .:::AMMMMMMMM:IIIIIHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHV:::..
     HHHHHMMMIIIA:I::.:.:..:... AMMMMMMMMMM:IIIIIIHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHV::::::
     VHHHHMMIIIIMA:I::::.::..AMMMMMMMMMMM:IIIIIIIHHHHHHHHHHHHHHV::::::::
      HHHHMIIIIMMMA:II:I::AIIIMMMMMMMMMM:IIIIIIIHHHHHHHHHHHHHHV:::::::::
      VHHHHIIIMMMMMMA:I:AIIIIIIMMMMMM:IIIIIIIIHHHHHHHHHHHHHHV::::::::"'
       HHHHHIIMMMMMMIMAAIIIIIIIIMMM:IIIIIIIIHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHV:::::""'
       VHHHIIIIMMMMIIIIIIIIIIIIII:IIIIIIIIHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHV::""'
        VHHIIIMMMMMIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHV
         VHHIMMMMMMMIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIHHHHHHHHHHHHHV
          VHHHMMMMMMMMIIIIIIIIIIIHHHHHHHHHHHV
           VHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMHHHHHHHHHHHHHV

Love    .'`'.'`'.         
        `.     .'         
          `. .'       
            '   Simon!

  (*)(*)  |  Simon Bowring           +44 1225 465947 (Home) 
   ) .(   |  59 Ringswell Gardens    +44 1225 868228 (Work)
  (  v )  |  Bath
   \ |/   |  Somerset BA1 6BN

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 15:03:42 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Trevor Smith)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:03:42 -0400 (AST)
Subject: TZ... Again (OT)
In-Reply-To: <200003301245.NAA00205@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200003301403.KAA23847@jupiter.accesscable.net>

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:45:49 +0100 (BST), Simon Bowring wrote:

>I agree, although it would have introduced the RTC "creep" problem
>on mutiple boot systems with OS/2 and DOS or Windows, because windows
>considers the RTC to run in local time too!  

Another reason not to boot to Windows. :-)

-- 
 Trevor Smith          |          trevor@haligonian.com
 PGP public key available at: www.haligonian.com/trevor

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= A68C C4EC C163 5C0A 6CFA  671F 05D4 0B30 318B AFD6

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 15:09:16 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Trevor Smith)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:09:16 -0400 (AST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003301357.OAA05505@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200003301408.KAA25474@jupiter.accesscable.net>

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:57:33 +0100 (BST), Simon Bowring wrote:

>Indeed - just start every email with some "ASCII-art" lettering, that way 
>they'll have to switch to one of God's own non-proportional fonts, in
>order to read it ;-)

Even better: write your ENTIRE message in ASCII art letters so it's
unreadable unless they use a fixed width font!

Or, better still: write your entire messge in Netscape's email HTML
format so they are forced to use Navigator to read it! :-)

-- 
 Trevor Smith          |          trevor@haligonian.com
 PGP public key available at: www.haligonian.com/trevor

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= A68C C4EC C163 5C0A 6CFA  671F 05D4 0B30 318B AFD6

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 15:13:20 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Trevor Smith)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:13:20 -0400 (AST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003301242.NAA00048@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200003301412.KAA26612@jupiter.accesscable.net>

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:42:28 +0100 (BST), Simon Bowring wrote:

>... the *only* way to maintain layout in email is to use plain text, 
>and manual lay-out using a non-proportional font in the originating 
>and receiveing email packages which both need to be STANDARDS 
>CONFORMANT (HTML or no HTML).

Again, not quite accurate. It is not the "*only* way to maintain
layout in email."

Another way would be to use HTML and make sure the originating and
receiveing email packages are STANDARDS CONFORMANT.

I'm being difficult to point out to you that you are arguing with
more or less the same logic that the HTML email camp is: "if you just
tell people what to use or how to view it, everything will be OK."
This is true, but it's equally true for HTML email.

So, it seems to me that we actually are lacking standards for both
ASCII email and for HTML email.

-- 
 Trevor Smith          |          trevor@haligonian.com
 PGP public key available at: www.haligonian.com/trevor

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= A68C C4EC C163 5C0A 6CFA  671F 05D4 0B30 318B AFD6

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 15:14:17 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Larry Ebbitt)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:14:17 -0500 (EST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003301357.OAA05505@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>
Message-ID: <E12afiF-00025e-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:57:33 +0100 (BST), Simon Bowring wrote:

>One of 1000s of good resaons to use mono-spaced fonts ;-) :

Excellent philosophy!!

Larry  -  Atlanta / OS/2

DISCLAIMER:  In the case that I contradicted something else I said 
in this or some other post, the verbiage that is correct will override 
the incorrect verbiage and the incorrect verbiage will be void!

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 15:18:25 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Jonathan B. Bayer)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:18:25 -0500
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003301357.OAA05505@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200003301417.JAA00250@chubb.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:57:33 +0100 (BST), Simon Bowring wrote:

>Indeed - just start every email with some "ASCII-art" lettering, that way 
>they'll have to switch to one of God's own non-proportional fonts, in
>order to read it ;-)

Cute :-(    Thanks for a) wasting 12 k of bandwidth, b) forcing me to
play with the fonts in PMMail in order to see the picture (yes, I was
curious) and c) nearly getting me fired for viewing non-appropriate
material at work.

JBB
- --
ICQ # 44910403
Power Listviewer URL:   http://www.bigfoot.com/~PowerListviewer
PMMail Archiver URL:    http://www.bigfoot.com/~Jonathan_Bayer/archiver

For PGP Public key block/Fingerprint send the following message to me as the Subject:
        Send PGP Signature

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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 16:03:56 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 07:03:56 -0800
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003301417.JAA00250@chubb.com>; from Jonathan_Bayer@bigfoot.com on Thu, Mar 30, 2000 at 09:18:25AM -0500
References: <200003301357.OAA05505@burton.mpc-data.co.uk> <200003301417.JAA00250@chubb.com>
Message-ID: <20000330070356.A8859@rpglink.com>

On Thu, Mar 30, 2000 at 09:18:25AM -0500, Jonathan B. Bayer wrote:
> Cute :-(    Thanks for a) wasting 12 k of bandwidth, b) forcing me to
> play with the fonts in PMMail in order to see the picture (yes, I was
> curious) and c) nearly getting me fired for viewing non-appropriate
> material at work.

    Heh, c'mon, most places will understand a joke message at work.  'sides,
if that didn't do the trick I've got a few more around here.  Simon sure
surprised me since I hadn't seen those in years!  :)

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 16:40:11 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Andrew Webber)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:40:11 -0500
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <20000330025514.TTTE13052.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@CC892959-A>
Message-ID: <200003301542.KAA07123@mail6.magma.ca>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:54:33 -0500 (EST), Ralph Cohen wrote:

>it's because of the superior intelligence and good taste of 
>the Listar server?  Hey, does it have a sister?<g>

You mean a "Sistar"?

sorry.

andrew [awebber@wwwebbers.com]
- ------
for PGP public key, send email with "send public key" as subject
current local weather: http://cnn.com/WEATHER/html/OttawaOntario.html

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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 17:05:41 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Alexander Sarras)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:05:41 +0200 (CED)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003301357.OAA05505@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200003311424.QAA0000028225@balin.ap.univie.ac.at>

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:57:33 +0100 (BST), Simon Bowring wrote:

> One of 1000s of good resaons to use mono-spaced fonts ;-) :
> 
>                              . ...
>                          .''.' .    '.
>                     . '' ".'.:I:.'..  '.
>                   .'.:.:..,,:II:'.'.'.. '.
>                 .':.'.:.:I:.:II:'.'.'.'.. '.
>               .'.'.'.'::.:.:.:I:'.'.'.'. .  '
>              ..'.'.'.:.:I::.:II:.'..'.'..    .
>             ..'.'':.:.::.:.::II::.'.'.'.'..   .
>            ..'.'.'.:.::. .:::II:..'.'.'.'.'.   .
>           .':.''.':'.'.'.:.:I:'.'.'.'.'.. '..  ..
>           ':. '.':'. ..:.::.::.:.'..'  ':.'.'.. ..
>          .:.:.':'.   '.:':I:.:.. .'.'.  ': .'.. . ..
>          '..:.:'.   .:.II:.:..   . .:.'. '.. '. .  ..
>         .. :.:.'.  .:.:I:.:. .  . ..:..:. :..':. .  '.
>        .:. :.:.   .:.:I:.:. .    . ..:I::. :: ::  .. ..
>        .. :'.'.:. .:.:I:'.        ..:.:I:. :: ::.   . '.
>        '..:. .:.. .:II:'         ,,;IIIH.  ::. ':.      .
>       .:.::'.:::..:.AII;,      .::",,  :I .::. ':.       .
>       :..:'.:II:.:I:  ,,;'   ' .;:FBT"X:: ..:.. ':.    . .
>      .. :':III:. :.:A"PBF;.  . .P,IP;;":: :I:..'::. .    ..
>      . .:.:II: A.'.';,PP:" .  . ..'..' .: :.::. ':...  . ..
>      . .: .:IIIH:.   ' '.' .  ... .    .:. :.:.. :...    .'
>      . .I.::I:IIA.        ..   ...    ..::.'.'.'.: ..  . .
>       .:II.'.':IA:.      ..    ..:.  . .:.: .''.'  ..  . .
>      ..::I:,'.'::A:.  . .:'-, .-.:..  .:.::AA.. ..:.' .. .
>       ':II:I:.  ':A:. ..:'   ''.. . : ..:::AHI: ..:..'.'.
>      .':III.::.   'II:.:.,,;;;:::::". .:::AHV:: .::'' ..
>      ..":IIHI::. .  "I:..":;,,,,;;". . .:AII:: :.:'  . .
>      . . IIHHI:..'.'.'V::. ":;;;"   ...:AIIV:'.:.'  .. .
>       . . :IIHI:. .:.:.V:.   ' ' . ...:HI:' .:: :. .  ..
>       . .  ':IHII:: ::.IA..      .. .A .,,:::' .:.    .
>       :.  ...'I:I:.: .,AHHA, . .'..AHIV::' . .  :     ..
>       :. '.::::II:.I:.HIHHIHHHHHIHHIHV:'..:. .I.':. ..  '.
>    . . .. '':::I:'.::IHHHHHHHHMHMHIHI. '.'.:IHI..  '  '  '.
I think I just fell in love with those -- er -- eyes. 
SaS
-- 
       Dr. Alexander Sarras         |     * Trouble * IS my middle name!
  www.sarras.at     mail@sarras.at  |           The TroubleShooter
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 17:11:53 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Cristian Secara)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:11:53 +0300
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003301417.JAA00250@chubb.com>
Message-ID: <200003301609.SAA19548@beavis.fx.ro>

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:18:25 -0500, Jonathan B. Bayer wrote:

>b) forcing me to play with the fonts in PMMail in order to see the picture

Nah ... save message as .txt (to desktop), open with Notepad.
That way a) it was easier, b) PMMail will continue to read HTML :)

Best wishes,
	Cristi

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 17:23:19 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Brian Morrison)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 17:23:19 +0100
Subject: TZ... Again
In-Reply-To: <200003301654.RAA19226@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200003301723.JAA26289@mailgate.Cadence.COM>

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 17:54:38 +0100 (BST), Simon Bowring wrote:

>On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:48:52 +0000 (GMT), Dave Liquorice wrote:
>
>>> set TZ=gmt0bst,3,-1,0,7200,10,-1,0,10800,3600
>>
>>And I see that it doesn't work...
>
>In what way does it not work? (I'm not denying what you say,
>just want your justification)
>

I have already answered this, but my post has not yet reached the list
(I'm sending this via my work connection).

PMMail must be restarted to pick up the new timezone, if this has not
been done, the DST change will not be reflected  in the Date: header

-- 
Brian Morrison                                  bdm@fenrir.demon.co.uk
              do you know how far this has gone?
               just how damaged have I become?
                                      'Even Deeper' by Nine Inch Nails

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 17:44:59 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Jonathan B. Bayer)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:44:59 -0500
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003301609.SAA19548@beavis.fx.ro>
Message-ID: <200003301657.LAA05680@bayerfamily.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:11:53 +0300, Cristian Secara wrote:

>On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:18:25 -0500, Jonathan B. Bayer wrote:
>
>>b) forcing me to play with the fonts in PMMail in order to see the picture
>
>Nah ... save message as .txt (to desktop), open with Notepad.
>That way a) it was easier, b) PMMail will continue to read HTML :)
>
>Best wishes,
>	Cristi

You missed the point:  I don't want to have to do ANYTHING to read my
mail!

JBB
- --
ICQ # 44910403
Power Listviewer URL:   http://www.bigfoot.com/~PowerListviewer
PMMail Archiver URL:    http://www.bigfoot.com/~Jonathan_Bayer/archiver

For PGP Public key block/Fingerprint send the following message to me as the Subject:
        Send PGP Signature

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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 17:46:29 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Jonathan B. Bayer)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:46:29 -0500
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <20000330070356.A8859@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003301658.LAA05690@bayerfamily.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 07:03:56 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>    Heh, c'mon, most places will understand a joke message at work.  'sides,
>if that didn't do the trick I've got a few more around here.  Simon sure
>surprised me since I hadn't seen those in years!  :)

Joke message, yes.  Unfortunately, with the litigatious society we
have, anything even remotely resembling any sort of sexual harassment
(including viewing that image) can be taken the wrong way.

I didn't make the rules, I only have to follow them.

JBB
- --
ICQ # 44910403
Power Listviewer URL:   http://www.bigfoot.com/~PowerListviewer
PMMail Archiver URL:    http://www.bigfoot.com/~Jonathan_Bayer/archiver

For PGP Public key block/Fingerprint send the following message to me as the Subject:
        Send PGP Signature

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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 17:51:54 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 08:51:54 -0800
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003301657.LAA05680@bayerfamily.net>; from Jonathan_Bayer@bigfoot.com on Thu, Mar 30, 2000 at 11:44:59AM -0500
References: <200003301609.SAA19548@beavis.fx.ro> <200003301657.LAA05680@bayerfamily.net>
Message-ID: <20000330085154.A9613@rpglink.com>

On Thu, Mar 30, 2000 at 11:44:59AM -0500, Jonathan B. Bayer wrote:
> You missed the point:  I don't want to have to do ANYTHING to read my
> mail!

    Wow, that's a pipe dream.  I mean, one has to at least open the program.
;)

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 17:54:12 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 08:54:12 -0800
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003301658.LAA05690@bayerfamily.net>; from Jonathan_Bayer@bigfoot.com on Thu, Mar 30, 2000 at 11:46:29AM -0500
References: <20000330070356.A8859@rpglink.com> <200003301658.LAA05690@bayerfamily.net>
Message-ID: <20000330085412.B9613@rpglink.com>

On Thu, Mar 30, 2000 at 11:46:29AM -0500, Jonathan B. Bayer wrote:
> Joke message, yes.  Unfortunately, with the litigatious society we
> have, anything even remotely resembling any sort of sexual harassment
> (including viewing that image) can be taken the wrong way.

> I didn't make the rules, I only have to follow them.

    That's ok, you can also exploit them.  If someone decided to nail you for
sexual harrassment for that (which it clearly is not) then you can get them
for, I dunno, pick how they dress or something minor on their desk and nail
them.  Joys of sexual harrassment being in the eye of the beholder since
/anything/ can be taken as such.  All of a sudden they learn the lesson of
tolerance real quick.  :)

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 17:54:38 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Simon Bowring)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 17:54:38 +0100 (BST)
Subject: TZ... Again
In-Reply-To: <200003292048.VAA059.52@nexus.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200003301654.RAA19226@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:48:52 +0000 (GMT), Dave Liquorice wrote:

>> set TZ=gmt0bst,3,-1,0,7200,10,-1,0,10800,3600
>
>And I see that it doesn't work...

In what way does it not work? (I'm not denying what you say,
just want your justification)

Simon

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 18:00:59 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Simon Bowring)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:00:59 +0100 (BST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <E12aQdf-0000lK-00@mserv1a.u-net.net>
Message-ID: <200003301701.SAA19952@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 23:06:19 +0100, David Gaskill wrote:

>Most of the html e-mail that I receive uses bold and italic and different text sizes and 
>colours to distinguish blocks of text. The sender does not do this to make it look 
>pretty but to aid comprehension. 
>
>Of course you are right when you say that this can be done in Ascii using the 
>various e-mail conventions but it is certainly true that the use of colour and text 
>emphasis can aid clarity. 

So when soneone reads your coloured email on their VT-220 
(a very common monochrome terminal in common use, particularly 
on Digital systems like VAXes, but also on Unix etc), I can 
read your helpful comments like "my comments are in RED, fred's 
commenst are in yellow and queries are blue", how do you suggest 
the email client handles the situation?

Many mainframe, unix, VAX, mobile and PDA email users only have a 
monochrome display. I guess they don't deserve email!

Simon

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 18:27:41 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Alexander Sarras)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:27:41 +0200 (CED)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <20000330085412.B9613@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003311440.QAA0000000222@balin.ap.univie.ac.at>

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 08:54:12 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 30, 2000 at 11:46:29AM -0500, Jonathan B. Bayer wrote:
> > Joke message, yes.  Unfortunately, with the litigatious society we
> > have, anything even remotely resembling any sort of sexual harassment
> > (including viewing that image) can be taken the wrong way.
>  
> > I didn't make the rules, I only have to follow them.
> 
>     That's ok, you can also exploit them.  If someone decided to nail you for
> sexual harrassment for that (which it clearly is not) then you can get them
> for, I dunno, pick how they dress or something minor on their desk and nail
> them.  Joys of sexual harrassment being in the eye of the beholder since
> /anything/ can be taken as such.  All of a sudden they learn the lesson of
> tolerance real quick.  :)
> 
That's America for you. Maybe I should post that nice email I got from one
of our secretaries (female): About 11MB of an erotic
powerpoint-presentation ;-)

And we've got sexual harassment paragraphs, too.

SaS
-- 
       Dr. Alexander Sarras         |     * Trouble * IS my middle name!
  www.sarras.at     mail@sarras.at  |           The TroubleShooter
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 18:46:57 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Jonathan B. Bayer)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:46:57 -0500
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <20000330085412.B9613@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003301759.MAA05811@bayerfamily.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 08:54:12 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>On Thu, Mar 30, 2000 at 11:46:29AM -0500, Jonathan B. Bayer wrote:
>> Joke message, yes.  Unfortunately, with the litigatious society we
>> have, anything even remotely resembling any sort of sexual harassment
>> (including viewing that image) can be taken the wrong way.
> 
>> I didn't make the rules, I only have to follow them.
>
>    That's ok, you can also exploit them.  If someone decided to nail you for
>sexual harrassment for that (which it clearly is not) then you can get them
>for, I dunno, pick how they dress or something minor on their desk and nail
>them.  Joys of sexual harrassment being in the eye of the beholder since
>/anything/ can be taken as such.  All of a sudden they learn the lesson of

That's ok if you want to get involved in a big todo, but it is easier
for someone to say "sexual harassment" if there is a picture of a naked
lady on my screen, than is is for me to claim the same for a relatively
innocuous thing on their desk.

Me, I'd prefer to avoid the issue entirely.

JBB
- --
ICQ # 44910403
Power Listviewer URL:   http://www.bigfoot.com/~PowerListviewer
PMMail Archiver URL:    http://www.bigfoot.com/~Jonathan_Bayer/archiver

For PGP Public key block/Fingerprint send the following message to me as the Subject:
        Send PGP Signature

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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 18:47:22 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Jonathan B. Bayer)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:47:22 -0500
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <20000330085154.A9613@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003301759.MAA05816@bayerfamily.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 08:51:54 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>> You missed the point:  I don't want to have to do ANYTHING to read my
>> mail!
>
>    Wow, that's a pipe dream.  I mean, one has to at least open the program.
>;)

ROFLOL

JBB
- --
ICQ # 44910403
Power Listviewer URL:   http://www.bigfoot.com/~PowerListviewer
PMMail Archiver URL:    http://www.bigfoot.com/~Jonathan_Bayer/archiver

For PGP Public key block/Fingerprint send the following message to me as the Subject:
        Send PGP Signature

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Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 (C) 1997-1999 Network Associates, Inc. and its affiliated companies.

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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 19:09:13 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Simon Bowring)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:09:13 +0100 (BST)
Subject: TZ... Again (OT)
In-Reply-To: <E12abQr-0005x3-00@dfw-mmp2.email.verio.net>
Message-ID: <200003301809.TAA24634@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>

>     IIRC (which is sometimes up for grabs) this is because OS/2
>ignores anything after the offset in the 'TZ' environment setting.  It
>doesn't consider the longer string in error, but it doesn't do anything
>with it either.  If you look at the 'TZ' variable in the online help
>you'll also notice that only the offset is mentioned.

*OS/2* ignores TZ completely. Programs written in C and C++ use it!

TZ is parsed by the C/C++ run-time library which is shipped with C
compilers and is linked into ("becomes one with") the application program.  

It is possible that some programs parse TZ themselves directly and ignore 
the tail, but any programs using the C runtime library time functions 
properly will use the whole string

The documentation following is from from IBM C/C++.

[Sorry about the long lines, I just pasted this stuff
in.  If you use a proportional font, the syntax diagrams won't
make sense, but that's your fault, not mine ;-).  Maybe I should
have spent a couple of hours converting it to HTML <chuckle>]

Simon
--

 TZ

 This variable is used to describe the time zone information to be used by the locale.  
 It is set using the SET command, and has the following format: 

 +------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 |                                                                              |
 | >>--SET--TZ--=--SSS--+------------------------------+----------------------> |
 |                      |                              |                        | 
 |                      +-+---+--h--+----------------+-+                        |
 |                        |   |     |                |                          |
 |                        + + +     +-:--m--+------+-+                          |
 |                        |   |             |      |                            |  
 |                        +-+-+             +-:--s-+                            |
 |                                                                              |
 | >--+--------------------------------------------+------------------------->< |
 |    |                                            |                            |
 |    |                                            |                            |  
 |    +-DDD--+-----------------------------------+-+                            |
 |           |                                   |                              |
 |           +-,sm,sw,sd,st,sm,em,ew,ed,et,shift-+                              |
 |                                                                              |
 +------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

 The values for the TZ variable are defined below. The default values given are 
 for the built-in "C" locale defined by the ANSI C standard. 

 +------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 | Table 1. TZ Environment Variable Parameters                                  |
 +--------------+---------------------------------------------+-----------------+
 | VARIABLE     | DESCRIPTION                                 | DEFAULT VALUE   | 
 +--------------+---------------------------------------------+-----------------+
 | SSS          | Standard time zone identifier.  This must   | EST             | 
 |              | be three characters, must begin with a      |                 | 
 |              | letter, and can contain spaces.             |                 | 
 +--------------+---------------------------------------------+-----------------+
 | h, m, s      | The variable h specifies the difference (in | 5               | 
 |              | hours) between the standard time zone and   |                 | 
 |              | coordinated universal time (CUT), formerly  |                 | 
 |              | Greenwich mean time (GMT).  You can         |                 | 
 |              | optionally use m to specify minutes after   |                 | 
 |              | the hour, and s to specify seconds after    |                 | 
 |              | the minute.  A positive number denotes time |                 | 
 |              | zones west of the Greenwich meridian; a     |                 | 
 |              | negative number denotes time zones east of  |                 | 
 |              | the Greenwich meridian.  The number must be |                 | 
 |              | an integer value.                           |                 | 
 +--------------+---------------------------------------------+-----------------+
 | DDD          | Daylight saving time (DST) zone identifier. | EDT             | 
 |              | This must be three characters, must begin   |                 | 
 |              | with a letter, and can contain spaces.      |                 | 
 +--------------+---------------------------------------------+-----------------+
 | sm           | Starting month (1 to 12) of DST.            | 4               | 
 +--------------+---------------------------------------------+-----------------+
 | sw           | Starting week (-4 to 4) of DST.  Use nega-  | 1               | 
 |              | tive numbers to count back from the last    |                 | 
 |              | week of the month (-1) and positive numbers |                 | 
 |              | to count from the first week (1).           |                 | 
 +--------------+---------------------------------------------+-----------------+
 | sd           | Starting day of DST.                        | 0               | 
 |              | 0 to 6 if sw != 0                           |                 | 
 |              | 1 to 31 if sw = 0                           |                 | 
 +--------------+---------------------------------------------+-----------------+
 | st           | Starting time (in seconds) of DST.          | 3600            |
 +--------------+---------------------------------------------+-----------------+
 | em           | Ending month (1 to 12) of DST.              | 10              |
 +--------------+---------------------------------------------+-----------------+
 | ew           | Ending week (-4 to 4) of DST.  Use negative | -1              |
 |              | numbers to count back from the last week of |                 | 
 |              | the month (-1) and positive numbers to      |                 | 
 |              | count from the first week (1).              |                 | 
 +--------------+---------------------------------------------+-----------------+
 | ed           | Ending day of DST.                          | 0               | 
 |              | 0 to 6 if ew != 0                           |                 | 
 |              | 1 to 31 if ew = 0                           |                 | 
 +--------------+---------------------------------------------+-----------------+
 | et           | Ending time of DST (in seconds).            | 7200            |
 +--------------+---------------------------------------------+-----------------+
 | shift        | Amount of time change (in seconds).         | 3600            |
 +-------------- --------------------------------------------- -----------------+

 For example: 

    SET TZ=CST6CDT

 sets the standard time zone to CST, the daylight saving time zone to CDT, and sets 
 a difference of 6 hours between CST and CUT. It does not set any values for the 
 start and end date of daylight saving time or the time shifted. 

 When TZ is not present, the default is EST5EDT, the "C" locale value. When only 
 the standard time zone is specified, the default value of n (difference in hours 
 from GMT) is 0 instead of 5. 

 If you give values for any of sm, sw, sd, st, em, ew, ed, et, or shift, you must 
 give values for all of them. If any of these values is not valid, the entire 
 statement is considered not valid, and the time zone information is not changed. 

 The value of TZ can be accessed and changed by the _tzset function.  See the C 
 Library Reference for more information on _tzset. 

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 19:39:36 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:39:36 -0800
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003301412.KAA26612@jupiter.accesscable.net>
References: <200003301412.KAA26612@jupiter.accesscable.net>
Message-ID: <6444.000330@rpglink.com>

Thursday, March 30, 2000, 6:13:20 AM, Trevor wrote:
> Another way would be to use HTML and make sure the originating and
> receiveing email packages are STANDARDS CONFORMANT.

    Uhm, a web page in IE and Netscape, the two most "standards conformant"
browsers there are, will more often than not look different in each.  Toss in
Opera, another "standards conformant" browser and it look different again.

    You're making the mistake that HTML will be rendered the same.  It will
not.  Monospaced ASCII is a little harder to mess up.

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 19:40:34 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Simon Bowring)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:40:34 +0100 (BST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003301412.KAA26612@jupiter.accesscable.net>
Message-ID: <200003301840.TAA26573@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>

>Again, not quite accurate. It is not the "*only* way to maintain
>layout in email."
Oh, but it is!

>Another way would be to use HTML and make sure the originating and
>receiveing email packages are STANDARDS CONFORMANT.
Not true for two reasons:

1. No standards exist for specifying rich text with layout
   in an email, (using HTML or otherwise) so the standards 
   would have to be invented!

and more importantly:

2. HTML is unable to maintain layout between browsers.  It is 
   not designed for layout, it's designed to convey information.  

   You're allowed to "lose" the colour, images etc from an 
   HTML document, you're still within the standard!

   This would be useless for adding markup to email!

   With the advent of HTML 4 and stylesheets, it's now *possible*
   to *specify* detailed layout in HTML for the first time. 

   Only trouble is, it's perfectly legal to ignore this 
   information, and NO TWO browsers support the standard well 
   enough to render HTML the same in all but the most trivial cases.
   IE is quite good at CSS1 stylesheets, but NS is appalling!
   [I'm not surprised, it would be many man-years work to
   write a fully functional HTML+CSS parser and renderer.]

   We spend *days* trying to get some of our web applications 
   (which obviously output in HTML) to render the same on 
   NS and IE!

Have you tried Amaya, the web browser made by w3c (the guys who 
actually *define* HTML]?  It is able to legally interpret HTML 
in two quite different modes, both of which render quite 
differently to IE and NS (which render HTML 3 similarly only 
because they are competitors).

Go to http://w3c.org and get a free copy (for Windows at least).

People don't realise this kinda stuff about HTML, it's UNSUITABLE FOR
AN EMAIL RICH TEXT FORMAT!  I know you don't belive me, but
this is because you make assumptions about HTML that just aren't
true (see w3c and read the specs - I HAVE!) !

Simon

>I'm being difficult to point out to you that you are arguing with
>more or less the same logic that the HTML email camp is: "if you just
>tell people what to use or how to view it, everything will be OK."
>This is true, but it's equally true for HTML email.
No it's not! False assumptions!

>So, it seems to me that we actually are lacking standards for both
>ASCII email and for HTML email.

The web has standards, one of which is known loosely as "HTML",
which  are not too bad for what they are intended for - the 
presentation of information in hyperlinked documents accross
networks on a wide variety of output devices -  IT WAS NEVER 
INTENDED FOR LAYOUT.

With the introduction of stylesheets with HTML 4, the standard
has "buckled" a bit to cope with users trying to "force" layout 
out of it. The CSS1 style sheet standard is highly complex and
hard to implement, which is one reason why it is incompletely
implmented by *every* browser, and poorly implemented or not 
implemented at all by most!

IE5 and Mozzilla are the best interpreters of Stylesheets at the
moment, but even they can't agree.

If you want another illustration of what has do be done to
maintain layout using HTML, get a copy of Word 2000, do a 
"save as HTML" (not a save as compact HTML), and marvel and 
the acres of HTML, JavaScript and XML it uses to try to make sure
the layout is preserved in both NS and IE5!

I'm afraid I do really know what I'm talking about (most of
the time ;-)!

Simon

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 19:51:15 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Simon Bowring)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:51:15 +0100 (BST)
Subject: TZ Bug (was Re: TZ... Again)
In-Reply-To: <200003301723.JAA26289@mailgate.Cadence.COM>
Message-ID: <200003301851.TAA27197@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 17:23:19 +0100, Brian Morrison wrote:

>PMMail must be restarted to pick up the new timezone, if this has not
>been done, the DST change will not be reflected  in the Date: header

Ah I see.

I expect it could be worked around by killing and restarting 
PMMAIL from a scheduler (a bit crap, but...).

Simon

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 20:09:01 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Simon Bowring)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:09:01 +0100 (BST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003301658.LAA05690@bayerfamily.net>
Message-ID: <200003301909.UAA28354@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:46:29 -0500, Jonathan B. Bayer wrote:

>Joke message, yes.  Unfortunately, with the litigatious society we
>have, anything even remotely resembling any sort of sexual harassment
>(including viewing that image) can be taken the wrong way.
>
>I didn't make the rules, I only have to follow them.

Are you honestly seriously saying you nearly got sacked for 
viewing the email I sent to the list?

If so, I apologise most profusely, it was not intention
to offend, and I am very sorry that your employee might
sack you over something which you have no control
over whatsoever - I'd get another job or move to a free 
country if I were you!. 

If reading my email was a sackin' error, you'd be executed for 
some of the unsolited junk mail I have received!

I also strongly suggest you get a mailer that cannot render
HTML, someone might send you an html email with a picture of 
someone being  shagged by a horse, then would you be?

Or, is it just possible that you lied?

Simon
P.S. I also now understand why some people don't understand the
     issues about HTML, fonts etc, Understadable if they can't even 
     stretch to the concept of different countries ("the litigatious 
     society we live in". Jesus!).

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 20:26:11 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (David Gaskill)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:26:11 +0100
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003301701.SAA19952@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>
Message-ID: <E12akcJ-0004IJ-00@mserv1a.u-net.net>

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:00:59 +0100 (BST), Simon Bowring wrote:

>On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 23:06:19 +0100, David Gaskill wrote:
>
>>Most of the html e-mail that I receive uses bold and italic and different text sizes and 
>>colours to distinguish blocks of text. The sender does not do this to make it look 
>>pretty but to aid comprehension. 
>>
>>Of course you are right when you say that this can be done in Ascii using the 
>>various e-mail conventions but it is certainly true that the use of colour and text 
>>emphasis can aid clarity. 
>
>So when soneone reads your coloured email on their VT-220 
>(a very common monochrome terminal in common use, particularly 
>on Digital systems like VAXes, but also on Unix etc), I can 
>read your helpful comments like "my comments are in RED, fred's 
>commenst are in yellow and queries are blue", how do you suggest 
>the email client handles the situation?

If you read my posting you will see that I am referring to html e-mail that I receive. I 
also said that I only send html e-mail in response to a communication in that format. I 
think it reasonable to assume that those that send me html e-mail are not using VAXes 
orUnix so it seems to me courteous to reply in the format chosen by the sender. 

I know the majority opinion on this mailing list is that those that send html e-mail should 
either be ignored or sent rude responses although I believe boiling oil is favoured by 
some. Even if I was minded to join in this jihad against the blasphemers my income 
would decline so rapidly that before long I would not be able to afford the fuel to heat 
the  oil ... 

David

David

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 20:32:58 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Jonathan B. Bayer)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:32:58 -0500
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003301909.UAA28354@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200003301945.OAA06067@bayerfamily.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:09:01 +0100 (BST), Simon Bowring wrote:

>
>Are you honestly seriously saying you nearly got sacked for 
>viewing the email I sent to the list?
>

My manager just happened to be walking by just as I was opening the
message in vim.  Unfortunately, "she" had some sharp words to say to
me, I had to do some quick explaining to calm her down.

>If so, I apologise most profusely, it was not intention
>to offend, and I am very sorry that your employee might
>sack you over something which you have no control
>over whatsoever - I'd get another job or move to a free 
>country if I were you!. 

Apology accepted, just keep it in mind for others who might read that
kind of mail in a large office environment.

>
>If reading my email was a sackin' error, you'd be executed for 
>some of the unsolited junk mail I have received!

Ummm, reading mail is not a sacking error.  Viewing images such as what
was sent can be construed as sexual harassment in this country.

>I also strongly suggest you get a mailer that cannot render
>HTML, someone might send you an html email with a picture of 
>someone being  shagged by a horse, then would you be?

I do, it's called PMMail 2000.  PMMail does not display images, so I'm
safe in that regards.

JBB

- --
ICQ # 44910403
Power Listviewer URL:   http://www.bigfoot.com/~PowerListviewer
PMMail Archiver URL:    http://www.bigfoot.com/~Jonathan_Bayer/archiver

For PGP Public key block/Fingerprint send the following message to me as the Subject:
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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 21:15:35 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Simon Bowring)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:15:35 +0100 (BST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <E12akcJ-0004IJ-00@mserv1a.u-net.net>
Message-ID: <200003302015.VAA32319@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:26:11 +0100, David Gaskill wrote:

>If you read my posting you will see that I am referring to html e-mail that I receive. I 
>also said that I only send html e-mail in response to a communication in that format. I 
>think it reasonable to assume that those that send me html e-mail are not using VAXes 
>or Unix so it seems to me courteous to reply in the format chosen by the sender. 

Sorry, It's hard to track all the opinions/posters, it's coming in so 
thick and fast!

Personally, I find your attitude entirely reasonable, given that
"broken features" are being used so extensivly.

(Though I doubt if anyone would think it discouteous to respond in
plain text).

Simon

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 21:16:19 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Dave Liquorice)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:16:19 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: TZ... Again
In-Reply-To: <200003301654.RAA19226@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200003301916.UAA062.51@nexus.demon.co.uk>

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 17:54:38 +0100 (BST), Simon Bowring wrote:

> On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:48:52 +0000 (GMT), Dave Liquorice wrote:
> 
>>> set TZ=gmt0bst,3,-1,0,7200,10,-1,0,10800,3600
>>
>> And I see that it doesn't work...
> 
> In what way does it not work? (I'm not denying what you say, just want 
> your justification)

You either ignored or didn't see the header lines I quoted from your 
orginal message.

> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:08:18 +0000 (GMT)
> X-Mailer: PMMail 2.10.1999 for OS/2 Warp 4.00

On Mon 27th Mar 2000 10:08:18 you should have had +0100 (BST) not +0000 
(GMT).

Cheers
Dave.

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 21:17:19 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Trevor Smith)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 16:17:19 -0400 (AST)
Subject: TZ... Again (OT)
In-Reply-To: <200003301809.TAA24634@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200003302016.QAA13832@jupiter.accesscable.net>

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:09:13 +0100 (BST), Simon Bowring wrote:

> When TZ is not present, the default is EST5EDT, the "C" locale value. When only 
> the standard time zone is specified, the default value of n (difference in hours 
> from GMT) is 0 instead of 5. 

You know, it strikes me as very egocentric that TZ defaults to
EST/EDT if the SET TZ statement isn't present. Shouldn't it default
to UT?

The way it is is like saying the "default" is -5 hrs from the
"standard".

-- 
 Trevor Smith          |          trevor@haligonian.com
 PGP public key available at: www.haligonian.com/trevor

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= A68C C4EC C163 5C0A 6CFA  671F 05D4 0B30 318B AFD6

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 21:24:21 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Simon Bowring)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:24:21 +0100 (BST)
Subject: OT: Sexual Harrasment (was Re: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.)
In-Reply-To: <200003301945.OAA06067@bayerfamily.net>
Message-ID: <200003302024.VAA00086@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:32:58 -0500, Jonathan B. Bayer wrote:

>On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:09:01 +0100 (BST), Simon Bowring wrote:
>
>>
>>Are you honestly seriously saying you nearly got sacked for
>>viewing the email I sent to the list?
>Ummm, reading mail is not a sacking error.
No, I said reading *my* mail - I meant the individual posting!

>Viewing images such as what was sent can be construed as sexual 
>harassment in this country.

Sorry once again, I wouldn't tried to imply you may have been
lying if I'd been aware of this (incredible!) fact.

Gotta go to fire off a few emails to Billy Boy Gates, to see if
I can him sacked!  [Don't sue me Bill, it's a joke!]

Regards

Simon

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 21:25:59 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Trevor Smith)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 16:25:59 -0400 (AST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <6444.000330@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003302025.QAA16481@jupiter.accesscable.net>

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:39:36 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>    Uhm, a web page in IE and Netscape, the two most "standards conformant"
>browsers there are, will more often than not look different in each.  Toss in
>Opera, another "standards conformant" browser and it look different again.
>
>    You're making the mistake that HTML will be rendered the same.  It will
>not.  Monospaced ASCII is a little harder to mess up.

Sigh. You're making the mistake. You completely misread my argument.

There is a difference between saying "you must both use Navigator"
and saying "you must both use a proportional font", but it is a
difference of scale, not a difference of logic.

I agree, we need a *real* standard for rich text email, not an
embrace and extend strategy by competing companies. But that doesn't
mean that the existing convention -- plain text email -- guarantees
identical rendering on different clients.

Just like Navigator and IE will display HTML email differently,
dfferent clients might render plain text email differently too,
depending on whether they are using proportional fonts or not,
depending on screen width, and maybe depending on other things.

I wasn't arguing that the existing mess with HTML email is "correct".
I was pointing out that to argue that using plain text email
guarantees readability is incorrect.

-- 
 Trevor Smith          |          trevor@haligonian.com
 PGP public key available at: www.haligonian.com/trevor

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= A68C C4EC C163 5C0A 6CFA  671F 05D4 0B30 318B AFD6

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 21:37:21 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Trevor Smith)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 16:37:21 -0400 (AST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003301840.TAA26573@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200003302036.QAA19941@jupiter.accesscable.net>

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:40:34 +0100 (BST), Simon Bowring wrote:

>People don't realise this kinda stuff about HTML, it's UNSUITABLE FOR
>AN EMAIL RICH TEXT FORMAT!  I know you don't belive me, but

I do believe you. I never argued that HTML is a good solution for
rich text email. I was just pointing out that plain text doesn't
guarantee identical rendering either.

-- 
 Trevor Smith          |          trevor@haligonian.com
 PGP public key available at: www.haligonian.com/trevor

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= A68C C4EC C163 5C0A 6CFA  671F 05D4 0B30 318B AFD6

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 22:30:02 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Wendt)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:30:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <20000330070356.A8859@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.4.21.0003301328580.1383-100000@fingers.shocking.com>

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Steve Lamb wrote:

>     Heh, c'mon, most places will understand a joke message at work.  'sides,
> if that didn't do the trick I've got a few more around here.  Simon sure
> surprised me since I hadn't seen those in years!  :)

I for one always enjoyed the creativity of ASCII art... don't see much
these days.  Of course, ANSI art is even cooloer, but we won't go there in
the context of e-mail... :)

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 22:33:22 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Brian Morrison)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:33:22 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Life after PMMail
In-Reply-To: <20000330052005.RHW22979.kxmta02-svc@mgate3.telekabel.at>
Message-ID: <E12atku-0005Kh-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 07:19:46 +0200 (CED), Alexander Sarras wrote:

>On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:48:24 +0100 (BST), Brian Morrison wrote:
>
>> It makes it harder to tell who quoted what. If I see a line not
>> preceded by a > that is obviously quoted, I mark the poster down in my
>> little black book.
>And then?

I monitor their behaviour and grade them on whether I consider that
their opinions are worth my time to read. I'm quite forgiving in
mailing lists, but on Usenet I take no prisoners, my killfile is slowly
growing.

- -- 

Brian Morrison                                  bdm@fenrir.demon.co.uk

 "Almost noon, and she had yet to go the launderette in Concreton to 
 thaw out chickens in the spin-drier..."

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= C7 12 B9 54 00 0F 51 F6  37 9B 18 D1 E1 61 14 0B

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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 23:07:08 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Larry Ebbitt)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 17:07:08 -0500 (EST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <20000330070356.A8859@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <E12an5o-0004PP-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 07:03:56 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>Simon sure
>surprised me since I hadn't seen those in years!  :)

Me either.  I haven't seen one since we used to print them out
from a deck of cards on a 1401.  We even had one that did a strip.
Set sense switches, and she'd remove different clothing.  I think
she was called Edie.

Larry  -  Atlanta / OS/2

DISCLAIMER:  In the case that I contradicted something else I said 
in this or some other post, the verbiage that is correct will override 
the incorrect verbiage and the incorrect verbiage will be void!

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Thu Mar 30 23:41:04 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Cristian Secara)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 01:41:04 +0300
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <7336.000329@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003302137.e2ULauw02496@ns.romsat.ro>

On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:03:56 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>You must remember that email clients only offer a /very/ limited
>subset of HTML and none of it offers any formatting above and beyond what you
>can do with plain ASCII.

I would not be so sure.
The latest Outlook Express, installed on my system at IE 5.01 upgrade
time, generates
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
"rich" text. It includes <DIV> elements, being able to use style
information to blocks of content.
This is *not* a /very/ limited subset of HTML ...

Best wishes,
	Cristi

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 01:05:38 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Bernhard E Krevet)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 16:05:38 -0800
Subject: Edit (was: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.)
In-Reply-To: <E12an5o-0004PP-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003310010.QAA02680@sjpc.sjpc.org>

The stripper's name was Edit and the printer an IBM 1403.
Some versions also played a tune that you hear on an AM radio...
Well, that gives away my age...
B.
------------------------------------------------------------
On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 17:07:08 -0500 (EST), Larry Ebbitt wrote:

>On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 07:03:56 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:
>
>>Simon sure
>>surprised me since I hadn't seen those in years!  :)
>
>Me either.  I haven't seen one since we used to print them out
>from a deck of cards on a 1401.  We even had one that did a strip.
>Set sense switches, and she'd remove different clothing.  I think
>she was called Edie.
>
>
>Larry  -  Atlanta / OS/2

---------------------
Phone: 707-254-9424
EMail: krevet@ibm.net

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 01:24:25 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (gomez)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 02:24:25 +0200
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
Message-ID: <E12apIo-0004vT-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:26:11 +0100, David Gaskill wrote:

>I know the majority opinion on this mailing list is that those that 
>send html e-mail should either be ignored or sent rude responses 

oh yeah ;)

>although I believe boiling oil is favoured by some.

mmmmmmm.. why not ?  >:)

Mauro

-----------------------------------------------
/"\
\ /   FIOCCO ASCII - CONTRO LE E-MAIL IN HTML
 X   ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN - AGAINST HTML MAIL
/ \  
\,/  
-----------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 03:15:34 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:15:34 -0800
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003302025.QAA16481@jupiter.accesscable.net>
References: <200003302025.QAA16481@jupiter.accesscable.net>
Message-ID: <6760.000330@rpglink.com>

Thursday, March 30, 2000, 12:25:59 PM, Trevor wrote:
> I wasn't arguing that the existing mess with HTML email is "correct".
> I was pointing out that to argue that using plain text email
> guarantees readability is incorrect.

    And you mistook ours.  Plain text makes it simple.  You have two choices,
non-proportional fonts or proportional fonts.  If it ain't one, it is the
other.  Done, fini, over with.

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 03:42:46 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Jonathan B. Bayer)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:42:46 -0500
Subject: OT: Sexual Harrasment (was Re: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.)
In-Reply-To: <200003302024.VAA00086@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200003310255.VAA06744@bayerfamily.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:24:21 +0100 (BST), Simon Bowring wrote:

>>Viewing images such as what was sent can be construed as sexual 
>>harassment in this country.
>
>Sorry once again, I wouldn't tried to imply you may have been
>lying if I'd been aware of this (incredible!) fact.

No need to apologize.  I got accused once of harassment, but the crazy
thing was that they didn't tell me what I did or who made the
complaint!  Luckily for me they were warning me and not bring charges,
but for the life of me I still don't know what I did!

Sexual harassment in this country is very wierd!  For example, I've
heard of a case where a man asked a woman out for a date.  She refused,
about a month later he asked her again and was accused of harassment
because he asked her a second time!

So forgive me if I'm a bit touchy on the subject.

JBB
- --
ICQ # 44910403
Power Listviewer URL:   http://www.bigfoot.com/~PowerListviewer
PMMail Archiver URL:    http://www.bigfoot.com/~Jonathan_Bayer/archiver

For PGP Public key block/Fingerprint send the following message to me as the Subject:
        Send PGP Signature

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Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 (C) 1997-1999 Network Associates, Inc. and its affiliated companies.

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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 06:34:35 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Alexander Sarras)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 07:34:35 +0200 (CED)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003302137.e2ULauw02496@ns.romsat.ro>
Message-ID: <200003311440.QAA0000002390@balin.ap.univie.ac.at>

On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 01:41:04 +0300, Cristian Secara wrote:

> On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:03:56 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:
> 
> >You must remember that email clients only offer a /very/ limited
> >subset of HTML and none of it offers any formatting above and beyond what you
> >can do with plain ASCII.
> 
> I would not be so sure.
> The latest Outlook Express, installed on my system at IE 5.01 upgrade
> time, generates
> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> "rich" text. It includes <DIV> elements, being able to use style
> information to blocks of content.
> This is *not* a /very/ limited subset of HTML ...
>
Knowing whar M$ did with standards (look at the 'save as HTML' option in
Word) I doubt the validity of that DOCTYPE statement.
SaS
-- 
       Dr. Alexander Sarras         |     * Trouble * IS my middle name!
  www.sarras.at     mail@sarras.at  |           The TroubleShooter
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 06:46:20 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Alexander Sarras)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 07:46:20 +0200 (CED)
Subject: OT: Sexual Harrasment (was Re: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.)
In-Reply-To: <200003310255.VAA06744@bayerfamily.net>
Message-ID: <200003311440.QAA0000003387@balin.ap.univie.ac.at>

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:42:46 -0500, Jonathan B. Bayer wrote:

> 
> No need to apologize.  I got accused once of harassment, but the crazy
> thing was that they didn't tell me what I did or who made the
> complaint!  Luckily for me they were warning me and not bring charges,
> but for the life of me I still don't know what I did!
> 
In that case I'd insist on charges being made. Or don't you have a legal
system protecting the innocent in this country of yours?
SaS
-- 
       Dr. Alexander Sarras         |     * Trouble * IS my middle name!
  www.sarras.at     mail@sarras.at  |           The TroubleShooter
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 08:55:41 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Norm)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 02:55:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: TZ... Again (OT)
In-Reply-To: <200003302016.QAA13832@jupiter.accesscable.net>
Message-ID: <E12awHT-0000Xl-00@dfw-mmp3.email.verio.net>

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 16:17:19 -0400 (AST), Trevor Smith wrote:

>> When TZ is not present, the default is EST5EDT, the "C" locale value. When only 
>> the standard time zone is specified, the default value of n (difference in hours 
>> from GMT) is 0 instead of 5. 
>
>You know, it strikes me as very egocentric that TZ defaults to
>EST/EDT if the SET TZ statement isn't present. Shouldn't it default
>to UT?
>
>The way it is is like saying the "default" is -5 hrs from the
>"standard".

     I've always wondered about that.  I live in the EST/EDT zone, and
when installing anything that required a TZ setting I've always
wondered why it usually defaulted to the correct value.  I couldn't for
the life of me think of a way this sort of value could be 'sniffed',
but then again why was the default value almost always correct...so now
I know :-).

--
 ...Cheers,

 ...Norm

***********************************************
* Brought to you by OS/2 Warp v4.0 and PMMail *
* For a copy of my PGP key send me a message  *
* with "send pub_key" in the subject          *
***********************************************

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 13:52:23 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Brian Morrison)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 13:52:23 +0100
Subject: Curious dating behavior in PMMail 2000
In-Reply-To: <200003311335.IAA12436@email.nist.gov>
Message-ID: <200003311352.FAA10780@mailgate.Cadence.COM>

On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 08:44:07 -0500, Michael Baum wrote:

>When you open one of his messages, 
>the date window "correctly" reports a day in 1972. On  the whole 
>you'd kind of exepct his mail to all sort to the bottom of a folder sorted by 
>message date, but in that context (a folder display, that is) the year is reported 
>as 3872, so in fact they all sort to the top.
>
>Curious.
>

That's because the date window simply shows the contents of the Date:
header in the message file, as it should.

The folder view stores the date referenced to some point or other and
it so happens that a date that far back is pre PC era and so displays
in a rather bizarre way. Remember that the Unix file system works in
seconds after 1 January 1970 and the PC did not appear until after 1
January 1980. That probably explains it, but no why the ISP is burying
their head in the sand rather than fixing their problem correctly.

-- 
Brian Morrison                                  bdm@fenrir.demon.co.uk
              do you know how far this has gone?
               just how damaged have I become?
                                      'Even Deeper' by Nine Inch Nails

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 14:00:51 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Brian Morrison)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:00:51 +0100
Subject: TZ... Again
In-Reply-To: <200003311354.OAA05380@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200003311401.GAA11447@mailgate.Cadence.COM>

On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:54:00 +0100 (BST), Simon Bowring wrote:

>Indeed you are correct. As you say, PMMail needs a restart to pick
>up the news settings which is not "great"!
>

No, it isn't, but in the same way deleted mail in the trash folder is
only deleted when it is more than the specified age and the program is
closed. There should be no need to close the program, the trash
cleanout should be scheduled to run every so often automatically.

These are 'features' that I would like to see implemented properly. Can
they be added to the list of things to fix please Trevor.

-- 
Brian Morrison                                  bdm@fenrir.demon.co.uk
              do you know how far this has gone?
               just how damaged have I become?
                                      'Even Deeper' by Nine Inch Nails

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 14:04:30 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (gomez)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 15:04:30 +0200
Subject: OT: Sexual Harrasment (was Re: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.)
Message-ID: <E12b1sg-00063H-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:42:46 -0500, Jonathan B. Bayer wrote:

>Sexual harassment in this country is very wierd!  For example, I've
>heard of a case where a man asked a woman out for a date.  She refused,
>about a month later he asked her again and was accused of harassment
>because he asked her a second time!

"Jane, may I ask to my lawyer to speak whit 
your lawyer about a date whit you ?"  ;)

Mauro

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 14:44:07 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Michael Baum)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 08:44:07 -0500
Subject: Curious dating behavior in PMMail 2000
Message-ID: <200003311335.IAA12436@email.nist.gov>

This
isn't  particularly 
debilitating or anything 
and I only pass it along for its amusement value.

I have
this one 
correspondent who's 
ISP has deliberately set the 
date on their Sun Unix server back 
28 years to save the trouble and cost of 
actually fixing some Y2K bug. No, swear to God
I'm not making this up. When you open one of his messages, 
the date window "correctly" reports a day in 1972. On  the whole 
you'd kind of exepct his mail to all sort to the bottom of a folder sorted by 
message date, but in that context (a folder display, that is) the year is reported 
as 3872, so in fact they all sort to the top.

Curious.

maab

=========================================
New formatting to try to maximize the chances that _every_ reader's display will
reproduce at least one line as originally entered.

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 14:49:54 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Andrew Webber)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 08:49:54 -0500
Subject: Curious dating behavior in PMMail 2000
Message-ID: <200003311352.IAA27888@mail6.magma.ca>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 08:44:07 -0500, Michael Baum wrote:

>I have this one correspondent whose ISP has 
>deliberately set the date on their Sun Unix server 
>back 28 years to save the trouble and cost of 
>actually fixing some Y2K bug. No, swear to God
>I'm not making this up. When you open one of his 
>messages, the date window "correctly" reports a 
>day in 1972. On  the whole you'd kind of exepct 
>his mail to all sort to the bottom of a folder 
>sorted by message date, but in that context (a 
>folder display, that is) the year is reported 
>as 3872, so in fact they all sort to the top.
>
>Curious.

One of the mailing lists I'm on has someone in that position too. 
His signature line is "[Yes, it says 1972.  It's not my fault.]"
(domain is CapAccess.org).

What's weird is, as you say, my list of messages, sorted in reverse
order by date, has him at the top

  xx/xx/72
  xx/xx/00
  xx/xx/99

It was like this in PMMail98 too.  On balance it's better than
being way down at the bottom, but it's still strange inasmuch as
when I open one of his messages it clearly says "1972".

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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 14:54:00 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Simon Bowring)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:54:00 +0100 (BST)
Subject: TZ... Again
In-Reply-To: <200003301916.UAA062.51@nexus.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200003311354.OAA05380@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>

>You either ignored or didn't see the header lines I quoted from your 
>orginal message.
>
>> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:08:18 +0000 (GMT)
>> X-Mailer: PMMail 2.10.1999 for OS/2 Warp 4.00
>
>On Mon 27th Mar 2000 10:08:18 you should have had +0100 (BST) not +0000 
>(GMT).
Indeed you are correct. As you say, PMMail needs a restart to pick
up the news settings which is not "great"!

Simon

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 14:57:07 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Larry Ebbitt)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 08:57:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Edit (was: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.)
In-Reply-To: <200003310010.QAA02680@sjpc.sjpc.org>
Message-ID: <E12b1vX-00069X-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 16:05:38 -0800, Bernhard E Krevet wrote:

>Well, that gives away my age...

Well, it needs some of us old farts to give the list some seasoning <g>.

Larry  -  Atlanta / OS/2

DISCLAIMER:  In the case that I contradicted something else I said 
in this or some other post, the verbiage that is correct will override 
the incorrect verbiage and the incorrect verbiage will be void!

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 14:58:54 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Simon Bowring)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:58:54 +0100 (BST)
Subject: TZ... Again (OT)
In-Reply-To: <200003302016.QAA13832@jupiter.accesscable.net>
Message-ID: <200003311358.OAA05668@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>

>You know, it strikes me as very egocentric that TZ defaults to
>EST/EDT if the SET TZ statement isn't present. Shouldn't it default
>to UT?
>
>The way it is is like saying the "default" is -5 hrs from the
>"standard".

Doesn't everyone who's anyone live in New York?

Watchout Trevor, you don't want to get me started on US cultural 
imperialism! [no offence intended to our friends across the 
Ocean].

Simon

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 15:00:22 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Larry Ebbitt)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 09:00:22 -0500 (EST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <E12apIo-0004vT-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <E12b1yI-0006Kf-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 02:24:25 +0200, gomez wrote:

>-----------------------------------------------
>/"\
>\ /   FIOCCO ASCII - CONTRO LE E-MAIL IN HTML
> X   ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN - AGAINST HTML MAIL
>/ \  
>\,/  
>-----------------------------------------------

Bravo!

Larry  -  Atlanta / OS/2

DISCLAIMER:  In the case that I contradicted something else I said 
in this or some other post, the verbiage that is correct will override 
the incorrect verbiage and the incorrect verbiage will be void!

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 15:04:54 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Jonathan B. Bayer)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 09:04:54 -0500
Subject: Curious dating behavior in PMMail 2000
In-Reply-To: <E12b1wA-00069f-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003311417.JAA07793@bayerfamily.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 23:56:23 +0900 (EST), John Angelico wrote:

>>I have
>>this one 
>>correspondent who's 
>>ISP has deliberately set the 
>>date on their Sun Unix server back 
>>28 years to save the trouble and cost of 
>>actually fixing some Y2K bug. No, swear to God
>
>You'd better not - surely *nixes don't suffer from the stupidity of Y2K?? Could it have been their own joke on the 
>wicked world of W Gates III?

The correspondent is wrong!  Unix doesn't suffer from the same Y2K bug
as the mainframes and the PC's.  Unix keeps it's date as the number of
seconds since Jan. 1, 1970.  The current 32 bit Unix's will have a
rollover problem in 2038, but since I don't expect 32 bit unix's to be
around then, I don't expect Unix to have this problem.

JBB
- --
ICQ # 44910403
Power Listviewer URL:   http://www.bigfoot.com/~PowerListviewer
PMMail Archiver URL:    http://www.bigfoot.com/~Jonathan_Bayer/archiver

For PGP Public key block/Fingerprint send the following message to me as the Subject:
        Send PGP Signature

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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 15:23:40 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Simon Bowring)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 15:23:40 +0100 (BST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003302025.QAA16481@jupiter.accesscable.net>
Message-ID: <200003311423.PAA08133@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>

>I wasn't arguing that the existing mess with HTML email is "correct".
>I was pointing out that to argue that using plain text email
>guarantees readability is incorrect.

I favour Steve's position.  If you assume an (approx) 80 char 
wide screen (but leave somne "spare"), use plain text and 
non-proprotional font, you are furthering the cause of a 
"common user experience" within mail (and news).

*Anything* else, and you should be prepared for a different 
experience.

Many people probably stare at their mail and wonder why certain
senders use badly wrapped lines, or lines of completely varying 
length, or they failed to line up columns of figures etc etc.

The only practical way of avoiding this for all users is for
all users to follow the documented and long standing practices 
of the internet community, embodied in various FAQs.  These 
include the things Steve and myself have argued for.

Regards

Simon

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 15:37:51 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Larry Ebbitt)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 09:37:51 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Curious dating behavior in PMMail 2000
In-Reply-To: <200003311417.JAA07793@bayerfamily.net>
Message-ID: <E12b2Ye-0006gT-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 09:04:54 -0500, Jonathan B. Bayer wrote:

>The current 32 bit Unix's will have a
>rollover problem in 2038, but since I don't expect 32 bit unix's to be
>around then, I don't expect Unix to have this problem.

I can remember folks saying the same thing about their mainframe
COBOL programs <g>.

Larry  -  Atlanta / OS/2

DISCLAIMER:  In the case that I contradicted something else I said 
in this or some other post, the verbiage that is correct will override 
the incorrect verbiage and the incorrect verbiage will be void!

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 15:48:04 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Trevor Smith)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:48:04 -0400 (AST)
Subject: TZ... Again
In-Reply-To: <200003311401.GAA11447@mailgate.Cadence.COM>
Message-ID: <200003311447.KAA16376@jupiter.accesscable.net>

On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:00:51 +0100, Brian Morrison wrote:

>These are 'features' that I would like to see implemented properly. Can
>they be added to the list of things to fix please Trevor.

I'll add them to the feature requests.

-- 
 Trevor Smith          |          trevor@haligonian.com
 PGP public key available at: www.haligonian.com/trevor

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= A68C C4EC C163 5C0A 6CFA  671F 05D4 0B30 318B AFD6

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 15:49:55 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Trevor Smith)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:49:55 -0400 (AST)
Subject: TZ... Again (OT)
In-Reply-To: <200003311358.OAA05668@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200003311449.KAA16946@jupiter.accesscable.net>

On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:58:54 +0100 (BST), Simon Bowring wrote:

>Watchout Trevor, you don't want to get me started on US cultural 
>imperialism! [no offence intended to our friends across the 
>Ocean].

:-) At least you have the whole Atlantic separating you from them!
We're actually connected to them. Yeck!

-- 
 Trevor Smith          |          trevor@haligonian.com
 PGP public key available at: www.haligonian.com/trevor

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= A68C C4EC C163 5C0A 6CFA  671F 05D4 0B30 318B AFD6

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 15:52:48 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Trevor Smith)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:52:48 -0400 (AST)
Subject: Curious dating behavior in PMMail 2000
In-Reply-To: <200003311417.JAA07793@bayerfamily.net>
Message-ID: <200003311452.KAA17891@jupiter.accesscable.net>

On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 09:04:54 -0500, Jonathan B. Bayer wrote:

>The correspondent is wrong!  Unix doesn't suffer from the same Y2K bug
>as the mainframes and the PC's.  Unix keeps it's date as the number of
>seconds since Jan. 1, 1970.  The current 32 bit Unix's will have a
>rollover problem in 2038, but since I don't expect 32 bit unix's to be
>around then, I don't expect Unix to have this problem.

LOL! That's probably what they thought about all the big iron and
Cobol that they just spent 3 yrs fixing. :-)

-- 
 Trevor Smith          |          trevor@haligonian.com
 PGP public key available at: www.haligonian.com/trevor

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= A68C C4EC C163 5C0A 6CFA  671F 05D4 0B30 318B AFD6

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 15:56:23 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (John Angelico)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 23:56:23 +0900 (EST)
Subject: Curious dating behavior in PMMail 2000
In-Reply-To: <200003311335.IAA12436@email.nist.gov>
Message-ID: <E12b1wA-00069f-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 08:44:07 -0500, Michael Baum wrote:

>This
>isn't  particularly 
>debilitating or anything 
>and I only pass it along for its amusement value.
>
>I have
>this one 
>correspondent who's 
>ISP has deliberately set the 
>date on their Sun Unix server back 
>28 years to save the trouble and cost of 
>actually fixing some Y2K bug. No, swear to God

You'd better not - surely *nixes don't suffer from the stupidity of Y2K?? Could it have been their own joke on the 
wicked world of W Gates III?

>I'm not making this up. When you open one of his messages, 
>the date window "correctly" reports a day in 1972. On  the whole 
>you'd kind of exepct his mail to all sort to the bottom of a folder sorted by 
>message date, but in that context (a folder display, that is) the year is reported 
>as 3872, so in fact they all sort to the top.
>
>Curious.
>
>maab
>
>=========================================
>New formatting to try to maximize the chances that _every_ reader's display will
>reproduce at least one line as originally entered.
>

What if they are all displayed as intended?

Best regards
John Angelico
OS/2 SIG
talldad@melbpc.org.au or talldad@kepl.com.au
--------------------------------------------

PMTagline v1.50 - Copyright, 1996-1997, Stephen Berg and John Angelico
... Contrary to popular belief, Unix is user friendly. It just happens to be very selective about who its friends are.

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 16:04:07 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Trevor Smith)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 11:04:07 -0400 (AST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003311423.PAA08133@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200003311503.LAA21440@jupiter.accesscable.net>

On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 15:23:40 +0100 (BST), Simon Bowring wrote:

>I favour Steve's position.  If you assume an (approx) 80 char 
>wide screen (but leave somne "spare"), use plain text and 
>non-proprotional font, you are furthering the cause of a 
>"common user experience" within mail (and news).
>
>*Anything* else, and you should be prepared for a different 
>experience.

Again, what you are saying is not much different than what Netscape
is saying. To paraphrase you:

"If you assume an (approx) 800x600 screen, use Netscape HTML and
Netscape's email/news client, you are furthering the cause of a
"common user experience" within mail (and news).

*Anything* else, and you should be prepared for a different
experience."

The point is we should set a standard that will allow us to stop
assuming or demanding what width, font, etc. to use. All that should
be indicated in the email format maybe.

Maybe we should all just start using PDF email...

>Many people probably stare at their mail and wonder why certain
>senders use badly wrapped lines, or lines of completely varying 
>length, or they failed to line up columns of figures etc etc.
>
>The only practical way of avoiding this for all users is for
>all users to follow the documented and long standing practices 
>of the internet community, embodied in various FAQs.  These 
>include the things Steve and myself have argued for.

I can think of a better way: implement a standard which includes a
header such as this:

X-word-wrap: 80

meaning "this message had each line wrapped at the 80 character
mark." Or:

X-word-wrap: 0

meaning "this message had line wrapping turned off."

Then no one would have to guess, no one would have to recommend
people change their settings. The client could read and adjust
automatically (assuming it was compliant).

-- 
 Trevor Smith          |          trevor@haligonian.com
 PGP public key available at: www.haligonian.com/trevor

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= A68C C4EC C163 5C0A 6CFA  671F 05D4 0B30 318B AFD6

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 16:19:47 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 07:19:47 -0800
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003302137.e2ULauw02496@ns.romsat.ro>
References: <200003302137.e2ULauw02496@ns.romsat.ro>
Message-ID: <5305.000331@rpglink.com>

Thursday, March 30, 2000, 2:41:04 PM, Cristian wrote:
> This is *not* a /very/ limited subset of HTML ...

    And how many clients will be able to read it?  1.  Outlook( Express).  My
point stands.

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 16:22:39 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 07:22:39 -0800
Subject: Curious dating behavior in PMMail 2000
In-Reply-To: <200003311335.IAA12436@email.nist.gov>
References: <200003311335.IAA12436@email.nist.gov>
Message-ID: <2307.000331@rpglink.com>

Friday, March 31, 2000, 5:44:07 AM, Michael wrote:
> I have this one correspondent who's ISP has deliberately set the date on
> their Sun Unix server back 28 years to save the trouble and cost of actually
> fixing some Y2K bug.

    Must have an old version of Solaris.  V6 is y2k compliant and Sun has
offered patches to 2.5.x to y2k compliance.

    And please, PLEASE, watch your subject lines!  Now someone is going to
nail John for sexual harassment for reading email about dating practices!

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 16:23:04 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 07:23:04 -0800
Subject: TZ... Again (OT)
In-Reply-To: <200003311358.OAA05668@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>
References: <200003311358.OAA05668@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>
Message-ID: <13307.000331@rpglink.com>

Friday, March 31, 2000, 5:58:54 AM, Simon wrote:
> Watchout Trevor, you don't want to get me started on US cultural
> imperialism! [no offence intended to our friends across the 
> Ocean].

    There's something across the ocean?  Cool!

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 16:23:36 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 07:23:36 -0800
Subject: OT: Sexual Harrasment (was Re: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.)
In-Reply-To: <200003311440.QAA0000003387@balin.ap.univie.ac.at>
References: <200003311440.QAA0000003387@balin.ap.univie.ac.at>
Message-ID: <16308.000331@rpglink.com>

Thursday, March 30, 2000, 9:46:20 PM, Alexander wrote:
> In that case I'd insist on charges being made. Or don't you have a legal
> system protecting the innocent in this country of yours?

    Uhm, lip service only, yeah.

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 16:26:40 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 07:26:40 -0800
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003311503.LAA21440@jupiter.accesscable.net>
References: <200003311503.LAA21440@jupiter.accesscable.net>
Message-ID: <17310.000331@rpglink.com>

Friday, March 31, 2000, 7:04:07 AM, Trevor wrote:
> Again, what you are saying is not much different than what Netscape
> is saying. To paraphrase you:

    Difference is I can do the former on an 80x25 vt220 WYSE hooked to COM1 on
my Linux box.  For some reason I can't get X up to get into Netscape.  I can
happily browse in links, though.

> The point is we should set a standard that will allow us to stop
> assuming or demanding what width, font, etc. to use. All that should
> be indicated in the email format maybe.

    We have a convention, stick to it.

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 16:28:13 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Andrew Webber)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:28:13 -0500
Subject: TZ... Again (OT)
In-Reply-To: <13307.000331@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003311530.KAA16141@mail6.magma.ca>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 07:23:04 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>Friday, March 31, 2000, 5:58:54 AM, Simon wrote:
>> Watchout Trevor, you don't want to get me started on US cultural
>> imperialism! [no offence intended to our friends across the 
>> Ocean].
>
>    There's something across the ocean?  Cool!

There's something on the other side of those "Immigration and
Naturalization Service" signs in Toronto and Vancouver airports? 
Cool!

andrew [awebber@wwwebbers.com]
- ------
for PGP public key, send email with "send public key" as subject
current local weather: http://cnn.com/WEATHER/html/OttawaOntario.html

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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 16:35:41 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Trevor Smith)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 11:35:41 -0400 (AST)
Subject: TZ... Again (OT)
In-Reply-To: <200003311530.KAA16141@mail6.magma.ca>
Message-ID: <200003311535.LAA00883@jupiter.accesscable.net>

On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:28:13 -0500, Andrew Webber wrote:

>There's something on the other side of those "Immigration and
>Naturalization Service" signs in Toronto and Vancouver airports? 
>Cool!

Ug. Toronto's a cesspool and if not for the mountains and ocean,
Vancouver wouldn't be much better. Halifax is the place to live.

-- 
 Trevor Smith          |          trevor@haligonian.com
 PGP public key available at: www.haligonian.com/trevor

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= A68C C4EC C163 5C0A 6CFA  671F 05D4 0B30 318B AFD6

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 16:39:20 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Trevor Smith)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 11:39:20 -0400 (AST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <17310.000331@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003311538.LAA01956@jupiter.accesscable.net>

On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 07:26:40 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>    We have a convention, stick to it.

I disagree. Let's make it a standard and then people don't have to:

1. know about the convention;
2. remember the convention; or
3. care about the convention

Their client can do it for them and the mail will look like the
sender intended.

-- 
 Trevor Smith          |          trevor@haligonian.com
 PGP public key available at: www.haligonian.com/trevor

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= A68C C4EC C163 5C0A 6CFA  671F 05D4 0B30 318B AFD6

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 16:43:44 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 07:43:44 -0800
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003311538.LAA01956@jupiter.accesscable.net>
References: <200003311538.LAA01956@jupiter.accesscable.net>
Message-ID: <16322.000331@rpglink.com>

Friday, March 31, 2000, 7:39:20 AM, Trevor wrote:
> I disagree. Let's make it a standard and then people don't have to:

    OK, if it ain't a console app, dump it.  There's your standard.

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 16:54:06 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Andrew Webber)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:54:06 -0500
Subject: Curious dating behavior in PMMail 2000
In-Reply-To: <200003311352.FAA10780@mailgate.Cadence.COM>
Message-ID: <200003311556.KAA20877@mail6.magma.ca>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 13:52:23 +0100, Brian Morrison wrote:

>That's because the date window simply shows the contents of the Date:
>header in the message file, as it should.
>
>The folder view stores the date referenced to some point or other and
>it so happens that a date that far back is pre PC era and so displays
>in a rather bizarre way. Remember that the Unix file system works in
>seconds after 1 January 1970 and the PC did not appear until after 1
>January 1980. That probably explains it, but no why the ISP is burying
>their head in the sand rather than fixing their problem correctly.

I'm not familiar with this folder view that shows 3872.  Is that a
/2 option?  The closest I can think of is the three-pane view, but
my list of messages shows "23/03/72".

andrew [awebber@wwwebbers.com]
- ------
for PGP public key, send email with "send public key" as subject
current local weather: http://cnn.com/WEATHER/html/OttawaOntario.html

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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 16:54:29 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Trevor Smith)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 11:54:29 -0400 (AST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <16322.000331@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003311553.LAA06581@jupiter.accesscable.net>

On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 07:43:44 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>    OK, if it ain't a console app, dump it.  There's your standard.

Umm... as the head of the standards comittee, I reject that proposal.
:-)

-- 
 Trevor Smith          |          trevor@haligonian.com
 PGP public key available at: www.haligonian.com/trevor

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= A68C C4EC C163 5C0A 6CFA  671F 05D4 0B30 318B AFD6

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 16:55:16 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Andrew Webber)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:55:16 -0500
Subject: TZ... Again (OT)
In-Reply-To: <200003311535.LAA00883@jupiter.accesscable.net>
Message-ID: <200003311557.KAA21096@mail6.magma.ca>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 11:35:41 -0400 (AST), Trevor Smith wrote:

>On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:28:13 -0500, Andrew Webber wrote:
>
>>There's something on the other side of those "Immigration and
>>Naturalization Service" signs in Toronto and Vancouver airports? 
>>Cool!
>
>Ug. Toronto's a cesspool and if not for the mountains and ocean,
>Vancouver wouldn't be much better. Halifax is the place to live.

Sure, but I don't think you have US PFI (Pre-Flight Inspection)
yet, do you?  That's what makes Ottawa the world-class sh.. err,
city, that it is!

andrew [awebber@wwwebbers.com]
- ------
for PGP public key, send email with "send public key" as subject
current local weather: http://cnn.com/WEATHER/html/OttawaOntario.html

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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 16:56:07 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Andrew Webber)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:56:07 -0500
Subject: OT: Sexual Harrasment (was Re: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.)
In-Reply-To: <16308.000331@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003311558.KAA21272@mail6.magma.ca>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 07:23:36 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>Thursday, March 30, 2000, 9:46:20 PM, Alexander wrote:
>> In that case I'd insist on charges being made. Or don't you have a legal
>> system protecting the innocent in this country of yours?
>
>    Uhm, lip service only, yeah.

"Lip service only": is that why Bill Clinton survived the Monica
scandal?

andrew [awebber@wwwebbers.com]
- ------
for PGP public key, send email with "send public key" as subject
current local weather: http://cnn.com/WEATHER/html/OttawaOntario.html

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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 16:56:36 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 07:56:36 -0800
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003311553.LAA06581@jupiter.accesscable.net>
References: <200003311553.LAA06581@jupiter.accesscable.net>
Message-ID: <4330.000331@rpglink.com>

Friday, March 31, 2000, 7:54:29 AM, Trevor wrote:
> Umm... as the head of the standards comittee, I reject that proposal.

    As leader of the peasant revolt we're taking over and beheading the
committee members, esp. the leader.  :P

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 16:57:46 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Jonathan B. Bayer)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:57:46 -0500
Subject: OT: Sexual Harrasment (was Re: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.)
In-Reply-To: <200003311440.QAA0000003387@balin.ap.univie.ac.at>
Message-ID: <200003311610.LAA08072@bayerfamily.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 07:46:20 +0200 (CED), Alexander Sarras wrote:

>On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:42:46 -0500, Jonathan B. Bayer wrote:
>
>> 
>> No need to apologize.  I got accused once of harassment, but the crazy
>> thing was that they didn't tell me what I did or who made the
>> complaint!  Luckily for me they were warning me and not bring charges,
>> but for the life of me I still don't know what I did!
>> 
>In that case I'd insist on charges being made. Or don't you have a legal
>system protecting the innocent in this country of yours?

With the convoluted legal system here, I wouldn't want to take my
chances.  Really screwy things have happened, I don't need to go
courting trouble.  Besides, that was a different company, and was bout
5 years ago.  So I'm not too concerned about it any more.

JBB
- --
ICQ # 44910403
Power Listviewer URL:   http://www.bigfoot.com/~PowerListviewer
PMMail Archiver URL:    http://www.bigfoot.com/~Jonathan_Bayer/archiver

For PGP Public key block/Fingerprint send the following message to me as the Subject:
        Send PGP Signature

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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 16:58:24 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Jonathan B. Bayer)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:58:24 -0500
Subject: Curious dating behavior in PMMail 2000
In-Reply-To: <2307.000331@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003311611.LAA08077@bayerfamily.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 07:22:39 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>    And please, PLEASE, watch your subject lines!  Now someone is going to
>nail John for sexual harassment for reading email about dating practices!

ROFLOL

Jonathan
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Power Listviewer URL:   http://www.bigfoot.com/~PowerListviewer
PMMail Archiver URL:    http://www.bigfoot.com/~Jonathan_Bayer/archiver

For PGP Public key block/Fingerprint send the following message to me as the Subject:
        Send PGP Signature

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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 16:59:42 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Jonathan B. Bayer)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:59:42 -0500
Subject: TZ... Again (OT)
In-Reply-To: <200003311449.KAA16946@jupiter.accesscable.net>
Message-ID: <200003311612.LAA08094@bayerfamily.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:49:55 -0400 (AST), Trevor Smith wrote:

>:-) At least you have the whole Atlantic separating you from them!
>We're actually connected to them. Yeck!

Look at it the other way around:  We (the US) are connected to a
country which can't even agree on a single language to speak :-)

JBB
- --
ICQ # 44910403
Power Listviewer URL:   http://www.bigfoot.com/~PowerListviewer
PMMail Archiver URL:    http://www.bigfoot.com/~Jonathan_Bayer/archiver

For PGP Public key block/Fingerprint send the following message to me as the Subject:
        Send PGP Signature

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 17:04:25 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Jonathan B. Bayer)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 11:04:25 -0500
Subject: TZ... Again (OT)
In-Reply-To: <200003311557.KAA21096@mail6.magma.ca>
Message-ID: <200003311617.LAA08119@bayerfamily.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:55:16 -0500, Andrew Webber wrote:

>Sure, but I don't think you have US PFI (Pre-Flight Inspection)
>yet, do you?  That's what makes Ottawa the world-class sh.. err,
>city, that it is!

How preflight are you talking about?  We do have to go through x-ray
machines, and they have dogs and cops in plainclothes watching.

JBB
- --
ICQ # 44910403
Power Listviewer URL:   http://www.bigfoot.com/~PowerListviewer
PMMail Archiver URL:    http://www.bigfoot.com/~Jonathan_Bayer/archiver

For PGP Public key block/Fingerprint send the following message to me as the Subject:
        Send PGP Signature

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 (C) 1997-1999 Network Associates, Inc. and its affiliated companies.

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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 17:07:47 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Trevor Smith)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 12:07:47 -0400 (AST)
Subject: TZ... Again (OT)
In-Reply-To: <200003311557.KAA21096@mail6.magma.ca>
Message-ID: <200003311607.MAA10395@jupiter.accesscable.net>

On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:55:16 -0500, Andrew Webber wrote:

>Sure, but I don't think you have US PFI (Pre-Flight Inspection)
>yet, do you?  That's what makes Ottawa the world-class sh.. err,
>city, that it is!

Good question. I'm not sure about PFI.

You're right though, Ottawa's nice. It's the only place between
Halifax and Banff that I would want to live.

-- 
 Trevor Smith          |          trevor@haligonian.com
 PGP public key available at: www.haligonian.com/trevor

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= A68C C4EC C163 5C0A 6CFA  671F 05D4 0B30 318B AFD6

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 17:08:49 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Trevor Smith)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 12:08:49 -0400 (AST)
Subject: TZ... Again (OT)
In-Reply-To: <200003311612.LAA08094@bayerfamily.net>
Message-ID: <200003311608.MAA10708@jupiter.accesscable.net>

On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:59:42 -0500, Jonathan B. Bayer wrote:

>Look at it the other way around:  We (the US) are connected to a
>country which can't even agree on a single language to speak :-)

LOL! Right. I hear in a few years there will be more native Spanish
speakers in the US than English speakers. Maybe then the language you
"agree on" will be Spanish and I'll have to start corresponding with
this list en Espanol, si?

-- 
 Trevor Smith          |          trevor@haligonian.com
 PGP public key available at: www.haligonian.com/trevor

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= A68C C4EC C163 5C0A 6CFA  671F 05D4 0B30 318B AFD6

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 17:10:23 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Trevor Smith)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 12:10:23 -0400 (AST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <4330.000331@rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003311609.MAA11157@jupiter.accesscable.net>

On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 07:56:36 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

>    As leader of the peasant revolt we're taking over and beheading the
>committee members, esp. the leader.  :P

:-) OK fine, I abdicate. I'm taking my horded ASCII millions and
running off to Argentina.

-- 
 Trevor Smith          |          trevor@haligonian.com
 PGP public key available at: www.haligonian.com/trevor

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= A68C C4EC C163 5C0A 6CFA  671F 05D4 0B30 318B AFD6

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 17:18:06 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Michael Baum)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 11:18:06 -0500
Subject: Curious behavior of PMMail 2000 in displaying calendar dates
In-Reply-To: <200003311556.KAA20877@mail6.magma.ca>
Message-ID: <200003311609.LAA20696@email.nist.gov>

On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:54:06 -0500, Andrew Webber wrote:

>I'm not familiar with this folder view that shows 3872.  Is that a
>/2 option?  The closest I can think of is the three-pane view, but
>my list of messages shows "23/03/72".

Yes, it is in the 2- or 3-pane view. Perhaps it's idiosyncratic to the
Windows version. There's a system-level setting that dictates whether
Windows reports the year in dates in 2- or 4-digit format, and I have it
set to 4 digits. 

maab

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 17:34:13 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Jonathan B. Bayer)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 11:34:13 -0500
Subject: Feature request (simple)
Message-ID: <200003311646.LAA08185@bayerfamily.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi,

A simple feature I'd like to see added is on the preferences screen,
where you are selecting a sound file to play for New Mail
Notifications.  I'd like to see a Preview button, so I can here what
the sound file is instead of having to open up another program to here
the sounds.

JBB
- --
ICQ # 44910403
Power Listviewer URL:   http://www.bigfoot.com/~PowerListviewer
PMMail Archiver URL:    http://www.bigfoot.com/~Jonathan_Bayer/archiver

For PGP Public key block/Fingerprint send the following message to me as the Subject:
        Send PGP Signature

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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 17:40:27 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Simon Bowring)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 17:40:27 +0100 (BST)
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
In-Reply-To: <200003302137.e2ULauw02496@ns.romsat.ro>
Message-ID: <200003311640.RAA19547@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>

>The latest Outlook Express, installed on my system at IE 5.01 upgrade
>time, generates
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
>"rich" text. It includes <DIV> elements, being able to use style
>information to blocks of content.
>This is *not* a /very/ limited subset of HTML ...

Just because, Outlook says it's using "HTML 4.0 Transitional", 
doesn't mean it will use the entire feature set implied by 
the statement.  

Hopefully it doesn't. 

It will probably use IE's rendering engine so will probably 
understand most/all HTML4T it receives, but will presumably 
only generate a limited subset itself when you write a message).

HTML 4.0 Transitional means that the HTML may contain "random"
features from earlier revisions! (not really random of course,
the transitional feature set is defined to be HTML 4 + most 
if not all of HTML 3). So as a contribution to setting
standards this is almost useless, because it effectively means
"any old junk HTML may appear in this page").

HTML 4 transitional includes all the font, java script, and image 
map tags etc etc that either don't make sense in a mailer, or are
depricated by w3c (all the stuff the standards body say you 
shouldn't use)

One example from w3c's guidelines at http://ww.w3.org/MarkUp/

"FONT tag considered harmful! Many filters from word-processing 
packages, and also some HTML authoring tools, generate HTML code 
which is completely contrary to the design goals of the language. 

What they do is to look at a document almost purely from the point 
of view of layout" 

HTML is so portable and maintains layout so well, that
some dickheads put this (GENUINE) message on their webpages:

"Before you view this page please do the following:

1. Set your screen size to 800x600, that's what I used to
   design this page, and it looks much better. Any bigger 
   than that is fine too, but you won't be able to view it 
   at 640x480.
2. View this page in Internet Explorer. I checked it in Netscape,
   and it does some wierd stuff. Better to play it safe.

If you do not do this, you will not be able to properly view this
page. Please let all the images load FULLY."
[Found at http://www.geocities.com/soul_impressions/]

I look forward to switching operating systems and adjusting my 
display resolution to read emails in future :^)

BTW: In case no-one's mentioned it before, HTML is unsuitable for 
markup in emails and no standards govern its use in this manner, 
that's why some of us argue strongly against it's use!

Simon

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 17:59:38 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Simon Bowring)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 17:59:38 +0100 (BST)
Subject: OT: Free HC XXX Porn in you mailbox 9456
In-Reply-To: <200003311440.QAA0000000222@balin.ap.univie.ac.at>
Message-ID: <200003311659.RAA21118@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>

>About 11MB of an erotic powerpoint-presentation ;-)

Is it available on a web/ftp site anywhere, I think Steve would 
probably have kittens if you posted it here (Joking! Obviously his 
filters would reject it anyway).

And while we're talking about powerpoint presentations, someone 
emailed me a single page form to fill in the other day - in 
f***ing powerpoint .PPT format - Great, I'll just rush out and 
buy a copy and borrow someone's windows machine to run it
on!  The guy was from a Unix shop too, so should've known better!

Simon

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 20:46:30 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Ralph Cohen)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:46:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: BSW and PMView and PMMail and the Timeline
In-Reply-To: <0FSA002R3UIBW6@piraten.student.lu.se>
Message-ID: <20000331194716.DRSP13052.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@CC892959-A>

I just read that BSW has taken over some of the marketing development
of the PMView 2000 product for OS/2 and Windows.  Fortunately, Peter
Nielsen has retained control of the code and software development so it
should be a positive move for PMView.  However, I am becoming
increasingly concerned about the curtain of silence that's been dropped
over PMMail development by BSW.  

When the announcement about BSW's takeover of PMMail was made, there
was a lot of talk about the renewed commitment to development that BSW
was boing to bring to the software.  Instead, we have gotten one minor
bugfix/update - a year after it was promised by Southsoft - and a
string of broken promises about timelines and improvements.

I understand that neither Jimmy or Trevor appear to be in a position to
make any statements about this situation, so I would like to prevail
upon them to ask Thomas Bradford to provide us with a timeline and a
firm commitment for its implementation.

Thank you,

Ralph Cohen

rpcohen@neurotron.com

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 21:23:41 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Brian Morrison)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 21:23:41 +0100 (BST)
Subject: BSW and PMView and PMMail and the Timeline
In-Reply-To: <20000331194716.DRSP13052.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@CC892959-A>
Message-ID: <E12b7xL-0001Ct-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:46:30 -0500 (EST), Ralph Cohen wrote:

>I understand that neither Jimmy or Trevor appear to be in a position to
>make any statements about this situation, so I would like to prevail
>upon them to ask Thomas Bradford to provide us with a timeline and a
>firm commitment for its implementation.

thomas.bradford@bmtmicro.com should get to him if you want to Ralph....

- -- 

Brian Morrison                                  bdm@fenrir.demon.co.uk

 "Almost noon, and she had yet to go the launderette in Concreton to 
 thaw out chickens in the spin-drier..."

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= C7 12 B9 54 00 0F 51 F6  37 9B 18 D1 E1 61 14 0B

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From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 21:29:44 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Trevor Smith)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:29:44 -0400 (AST)
Subject: BSW and PMView and PMMail and the Timeline
In-Reply-To: <20000331194716.DRSP13052.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@CC892959-A>
Message-ID: <200003312029.QAA16505@jupiter.accesscable.net>

On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:46:30 -0500 (EST), Ralph Cohen wrote:

>should be a positive move for PMView.  However, I am becoming
>increasingly concerned about the curtain of silence that's been dropped
>over PMMail development by BSW.  

Ralph, there is no official "curtain of silence" over PMMail --
honestly!

>was boing to bring to the software.  Instead, we have gotten one minor
>bugfix/update - a year after it was promised by Southsoft - and a
>string of broken promises about timelines and improvements.

Part of the problem -- as anyone who has ever done software
development knows -- is that deadline predictions are had to make
with 100% certainty. But, many users have demanded predictions so the
Blueprint management was forced to make them. Then, if Blueprint was
unable to meet the predictions, the result was disappointed customers
(you).

In order to acquire PMMail many things had to be done: a new business
had to be started, a manager had to be hired, support staff had to be
hired and trained (and we're still learning!), marketing
documentation had to be created (including a web site), source code
had to be acquired/modified, a programmer had to be hired, etc.

If you consider that a developer working on an established product
without any of the above overhead might take half a year or so to
release a major new version, imagine how long it takes *with* the
above considerations.

Please be assured that a LOT of work continues on PMMail and
(hopefully) most of the "housekeeping" is finally finished and future
development should be more timely.

-- 
 Trevor Smith          |          trevor@haligonian.com
 PGP public key available at: www.haligonian.com/trevor

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= A68C C4EC C163 5C0A 6CFA  671F 05D4 0B30 318B AFD6

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 21:31:47 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Trevor Smith)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:31:47 -0400 (AST)
Subject: BSW and PMView and PMMail and the Timeline
In-Reply-To: <E12b7xL-0001Ct-00@teleute.rpglink.com>
Message-ID: <200003312031.QAA17104@jupiter.accesscable.net>

On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 21:23:41 +0100 (BST), Brian Morrison wrote:

>On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:46:30 -0500 (EST), Ralph Cohen wrote:
>
>>I understand that neither Jimmy or Trevor appear to be in a position to
>>make any statements about this situation, so I would like to prevail
>>upon them to ask Thomas Bradford to provide us with a timeline and a
>>firm commitment for its implementation.
>
>thomas.bradford@bmtmicro.com should get to him if you want to Ralph....

You would be much better off emailing me
(pmmailos2@blueprintsoftwareworks.com) or Jimmy
(pmmailwin@blueprintsoftwareworks.com) directly. Thomas gets about a
hundred times more email than either of us.

-- 
 Trevor Smith          |          trevor@haligonian.com
 PGP public key available at: www.haligonian.com/trevor

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= A68C C4EC C163 5C0A 6CFA  671F 05D4 0B30 318B AFD6

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 21:45:38 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Erik Bracke)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 21:45:38 +0100 (CET)
Subject: TZ... Again
In-Reply-To: <200003261948.LAA019.52@tachyon.qnet.com>
Message-ID: <E12b7Ph-00013L-00@teleute.rpglink.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi everyone,

Just to add a (maybe) interesting item: there exists a TZCalc freeware programme on hobbes that calculates the correct setting for 
TZ environment variable as a function of your country. My machine here in France did the swap to DST correctly with the setting 
which I got from TZcalc and upon dialling to my ISP that started TimeKeeper/2 who finally adjusted the RTC.

SET TZ=CET-1CDT,3,-1,0,3600,10,-1,0,3600,3600

Of course, the offsets here (3600 for 01.00 AM) should have been 7200 (for 02.00AM) but that I could set myself.

Here is the readme that comes with the tzcalc03.zip archive from hobbes:

TZCALC - A program for calculating the TZ environment variable.
Version 0.3 (tzcalc03.zip) 

(This program was formerly included with time868f.zip)

The TZ (time zone) environment variable controls the 
interpretation of the hardware clock. While this information
is documented elsewhere, the information is cryptic and
difficult to use. Hence this program....

This program calculates the TZ environment variable from
settings on the screen.

Installation:
1. Unzip the .zip file into a new directory in a convenient
place.

2. Run the program. Follow the notes on the screen.

3. If needed, copy the calculated value to your config.sys

If you find an error (there are some), please let me know. If
possible please include a URL for a web page where the correct
information may be found.

This program is free, but a picture postcard or an email
note is appreciated.

I hope you find this useful. 

Norbert Dey
PO Box 103
Newberg, Oregon 97132
USA

Email: dey@teleport.com

Hope this info serves someone,

Erik B.

On Sun, 26 Mar 2000 11:48:54 -0800, Marty Abrego wrote:

>
>I hate to bring up a potentially explosive topic (well, maybe not),
>but this should be an easily answered question.  During the previous
>TZ discussion, I think someone posted the long-form of the TZ
>variable for OS/2 -- you know, the one that says exactly what date
>and time to change to DST?  I searched through the old mail, but I
>couldn't find it.
>
>The thing is, today we are on DST, but OS/2 didn't change.  That's
>"normal", except that I am running Timekeeper/2 and I thought it
>would handle it.  It didn't, but I think it might have if it had the
>long-form instead of "pst8pdt" for TZ.  Anyone remember the long
>version??
>
>TIA,
>
>
>                  \\|//
>  Marty Abrego    (o o)    "Bases are better covered than asses."    
> -------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo---------------------------------------
>  photon@qnet.com                                - Mr. Realtime
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>

//---------------------------------------------------
Erik Bracke
private:                         Prof.:
Villeneuve                       CERN (div. SL/LRF-co)
F-01170 Crozet                   CH-1211 Geneva 23
France                           Switzerland
tel.:   +33 (0)4 50 410 327      +41 (0)22 76 75632
email:  ebracke@attglobal.net    Erich.Bracke@cern.ch
***Note***Note***Note***
- From October 1st, 1999:
email: ebracke@ibm.net has changed!
Please Update Your AddressBook!

PGP Public Key Fingerprint= CC79 DA3A E7FD 007B AFD1  2726 31F1 3AE0 0391 7BD3

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i OS/2 for non-commercial use
Comment: PGP 5.0 for OS/2
Charset: cp850

wj8DBQE45ORDMfE64AORe9MRAoWDAKCaPf3nN3EBr/Y8th9AJPm6KxPLyACdEu5Q
CsTTPVqtIXJjWQjKNGq+Imk=
=8YGb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 22:38:43 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Cristian Secara)
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 00:38:43 +0300
Subject: don't like HTML email? here's your fix.
Message-ID: <200003312135.AAA00371@beavis.fx.ro>

On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 07:34:35 +0200 (CED), Alexander Sarras wrote:

>> The latest Outlook Express, installed on my system at IE 5.01 upgrade
>> time, generates
>> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
>Knowing whar M$ did with standards (look at the 'save as HTML' option in
>Word) I doubt the validity of that DOCTYPE statement.

Surely you're right.

But imagine I am saying this to an average computer user: Outlook
Express mailer, produced by the software giant Microsoft, does not
conform to standards; instead, PMMail mailer, produced by a small
software company called Blueprint Software, is a standard reference.

Who do you think will believe me ?
Or, if they do, who do you think will care about ?

Best wishes,
	Cristi

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 22:59:11 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Dave Liquorice)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 21:59:11 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: TZ... Again
In-Reply-To: <200003311354.OAA05380@burton.mpc-data.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200003312059.VAA065.11@nexus.demon.co.uk>

On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:54:00 +0100 (BST), Simon Bowring wrote:

>>> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:08:18 +0000 (GMT)
>>> X-Mailer: PMMail 2.10.1999 for OS/2 Warp 4.00
>>
>> On Mon 27th Mar 2000 10:08:18 you should have had +0100 (BST) not 
>> +0000 (GMT).
> 
> Indeed you are correct. As you say, PMMail needs a restart to pick
> up the news settings which is not "great"!

But my copy doesn't. I always shut down PMMail after reading/replying. 
Mind you I'm on:

X-Mailer: PMMail 2.00.1500 for OS/2 Warp 3.00

I think I have 2.10 lurking about somewhere maybe I'll load that up. Bit 
of the "it ain't broke so don't fix it" syndrome I'm afraid. I guess 
it's "broke" now though.  B-)

Cheers
Dave.

From pmmail@rpglink.com  Fri Mar 31 23:50:10 2000
From: pmmail@rpglink.com (Steve Lamb)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:50:10 -0800
Subject: (OT)(HUMOR) What really happens...
Message-ID: <19618.000331@rpglink.com>

    OK, normally I'd be pretty peeved at people for posting things from other
forums here, but hey, this one at least relates to a topic recently discussed
so I'm going to invoke the dreaded "It's my server, my bandwidth, dammit!"
rule (once in a year, I'm doing good, eh?) and post this here.  Flames to
/dev/null, kudos to Ralph since he is more deserving than I.

    Without further ado, this is what /really/ happens when you go against the
conventions of the internet.  ;)

Subject: Re: Atlantis
From: mike@no.spam.digiserve.com (Mike Blanche)
Newsgroups: sci.space.shuttle

In article <38E0CAB0.F877D992@excelonline.com>, the Right Hon. Mark Lopa, 
Member of Parliament for sci.space.shuttle, says:

> What happens wehn you post a binary attachment?

You will be cast down with the WebTV users and forever doomed to use 
Microsoft software. Your wife will run off with your best friend. Your 
house will burn down, your computer will "format c:", you will be framed 
for treason, and Pat Buchanan will be elected as president.

You have been warned.

You're also posting upside down, which condems you to a life of servitude 
to Bill Gates, but you can easily redeem yourself by posting your reply 
UNDER the quoted text and SNIP the quote to an appropriate length.

-- 
Moderators accept or reject articles based solely on the criteria posted 
in the Frequently Asked Questions. Article content is the responsibility
of the submitter. Submit articles to ahbou-sub@duke.edu. To write to the
moderators, send mail to ahbou-mod@duke.edu.

-- 
         Steve C. Lamb         | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
         ICQ: 5107343          | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------