[pmmail-list] alright, I've had enough ...
Rod Whitworth
pmmail-list@blueprintsoftwareworks.com
Mon, 16 May 2005 23:17:00 +1000
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On Mon, 16 May 2005 09:29:41 +0200, Sorin Srbu wrote:
>lists@blueprintsoftwareworks.com <> sez on Sunday, May 15, 2005 6:08 AM:
>> On Sat, 14 May 2005 21:22:09 -0500, Larry Alkoff wrote:
>>
>>> Thunderbird is being actively maintained and has solved a lot of
>>> problems I had with PMMail. In addition, Thunderbird opens a
>>> directory with a few thousand messages _much_ faster than PMMail
>>> because it stores email messages in the industry standard mbox
>>> format which can be used by just about any mail program around -
>>> I'm talking a small fraction of a second.
>>
>>> You won't be sorry if you change.
>>
>>
>> Unless something ever corrupts your mbox or an anti-virus thingy
>> "deletes the infected file" which is your mbox.
>Hear, hear! That's why I enforced the use of Outlook at our department
>instead of Eudora. There were just to many corrupt mailboxes and TOCs,
>not to mention the infamous max 1MB sized standard mailboxes (in, out,
>trash, junk etc). Took to much time to to fix, and the users ignored my
>pleas to keep those mailboxes small...
I hate to rain on your parade but a single file mailstore is a single file mailstore.
Delete one file and it's gone. Corrupt it (and that is easier with OutBreak or rather, harder to fix if done the right
way (by murphy)) and no backup=no mail
>> Everything is a trade-off and the "industry standard mbox" is now
>> just one of the "standards" because, at the mailserver in a busy
>> operation, the industry is changing to maildirs (directories with a
>> file per message - like PMM) to avoid the corruption mentioned above
>> as well as the file-locking that locks users out whilst a new
>> message arrives, the delay during message deletion (copy file up to
>> start of msg to be deleted, skip the msg, continue to end, delete old
>> mbox, rename new one) and other issues.
>Trade-offs galore. While Outlook may not be the very best mailer, it's
>still better than Eudora. So far no complaints.
>I would really have preferred a msg-based mailer instead. PMM was/is
>obsolete, but I've never had any problems with the msg-files except for
>the reindex-bug, which in itself is not really the message format's
>fault.
>> Very little of that affects the MUA except for the corruption=loss
>> deal but it is important to know that the mbox "standard" is not the
>> only method and likely it isn't even the majority leader by now.
>What format is the leader??
I think it is split and moving to maildirs but there are IMAP and POP3s that let you choose (why with IMAP I just
can't figure - users have freedom to move messages around from one "folder" to another) and there are proprietary
mailstores (Cyrus) databased ones (dbMail, Domino). Really I think the statistics are, as usual, fictional snap
decisions 97.328% of the time. 8-) My one reality is that I am seeing more maildirs than mboxes, in new
installations that I didn't do, where the installer didn't just take the default. I use nothing else now and I've been
using mail since the UUCP days so I've been through a few methods though I can't claim that I was doing
anything like mail when I joined IBM in 1962 and it only became reasonably available to me in the late 70's
>> There is a plug-in for Tbird that allows the saving of messages in
>> discrete files for those who would like copies of critical message to
>> be secured. The mbox is still the message store for Tbird itself.
>And Tbird is a clone of Eudora, or so I thought when I first testdrived
>it. My experiences with Eudora and its mbx and toc-files really didn't
>make me happy. As Tbird uses the same setup, is it also vulnerable in
>the same way as Eudora? Ie is it also sensitive for the mailboxsizes as
>Eudora is?
A single file ........... but it depends on two things: (i) how well the app manages the file. and (ii) whether some
external event can get at it. It seems that nearly everybody writing MUAs is an out of work Unix hacker trained in
Sendmail and maybe that's due to many of the new ones (MUAs) being designed for Linux where they'll fit right
in with Sendmail or that horrible UW crap.
I can't comment about Eudora size probs as I have no experience with it. I can say though that a planned
retirement project is to write an MUA, probably in Python, after I see just waht happens when the Unix clocks
overflow in January 2038. My latest OS (OpenBSD v 3.7) won't overflow the clock - feed it a high enough seconds
count and it just stops incrementing so Time will stand still if they change nothing else and I'll never get to be 100!
But that has to be better than going 136 years into the past..........
Take care!
>TIA.
R/
>From the land "down under": Australia.
Do we look <umop apisdn> from up over?
Rod/
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<HTML>
<FONT FACE="Palatino Linotype" DEFAULT="FACE"><FONT SIZE="4" POINTSIZE="14" DEFAULT="SIZE">On Mon, 16 May 2005 09:29:41 +0200, Sorin Srbu wrote:<BR>
<BR>
><FONT COLOR=0000ff><U>lists@blueprintsoftwareworks.com<FONT COLOR=000000 DEFAULT="COLOR"></U> <> sez on Sunday, May 15, 2005 6:08 AM:<BR>
><BR>
>> On Sat, 14 May 2005 21:22:09 -0500, Larry Alkoff wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>>> Thunderbird is being actively maintained and has solved a lot of<BR>
>>> problems I had with PMMail. In addition, Thunderbird opens a<BR>
>>> directory with a few thousand messages _much_ faster than PMMail<BR>
>>> because it stores email messages in the industry standard mbox<BR>
>>> format which can be used by just about any mail program around -<BR>
>>> I'm talking a small fraction of a second.<BR>
>><BR>
>>> You won't be sorry if you change.<BR>
>><BR>
>><BR>
>> Unless something ever corrupts your mbox or an anti-virus thingy<BR>
>> "deletes the infected file" which is your mbox.<BR>
><BR>
>Hear, hear! That's why I enforced the use of Outlook at our department<BR>
>instead of Eudora. There were just to many corrupt mailboxes and TOCs,<BR>
>not to mention the infamous max 1MB sized standard mailboxes (in, out,<BR>
>trash, junk etc). Took to much time to to fix, and the users ignored my<BR>
>pleas to keep those mailboxes small...<BR>
<BR>
I hate to rain on your parade but a single file mailstore is a single file mailstore.<BR>
Delete one file and it's gone. Corrupt it (and that is easier with OutBreak or rather, harder to fix if done the right way (by murphy)) and no backup=no mail<BR>
><BR>
>> Everything is a trade-off and the "industry standard mbox" is now<BR>
>> just one of the "standards" because, at the mailserver in a busy<BR>
>> operation, the industry is changing to maildirs (directories with a<BR>
>> file per message - like PMM) to avoid the corruption mentioned above<BR>
>> as well as the file-locking that locks users out whilst a new<BR>
>> message arrives, the delay during message deletion (copy file up to<BR>
>> start of msg to be deleted, skip the msg, continue to end, delete old<BR>
>> mbox, rename new one) and other issues.<BR>
><BR>
>Trade-offs galore. While Outlook may not be the very best mailer, it's<BR>
>still better than Eudora. So far no complaints.<BR>
><BR>
>I would really have preferred a msg-based mailer instead. PMM was/is<BR>
>obsolete, but I've never had any problems with the msg-files except for<BR>
>the reindex-bug, which in itself is not really the message format's<BR>
>fault.<BR>
><BR>
>> Very little of that affects the MUA except for the corruption=loss<BR>
>> deal but it is important to know that the mbox "standard" is not the<BR>
>> only method and likely it isn't even the majority leader by now.<BR>
><BR>
>What format is the leader??<BR>
<BR>
I think it is split and moving to maildirs but there are IMAP and POP3s that let you choose (why with IMAP I just can't figure - users have freedom to move messages around from one "folder" to another) and there are proprietary mailstores (Cyrus) databased ones (dbMail, Domino). Really I think the statistics are, as usual, fictional snap decisions 97.328% of the time. 8-) My one reality is that I am seeing more maildirs than mboxes, in new installations that I didn't do, where the installer didn't just take the default. I use nothing else now and I've been using mail since the UUCP days so I've been through a few methods though I can't claim that I was doing anything like mail when I joined IBM in 1962 and it only became reasonably available to me in the late 70's<BR>
><BR>
>> There is a plug-in for Tbird that allows the saving of messages in<BR>
>> discrete files for those who would like copies of critical message to<BR>
>> be secured. The mbox is still the message store for Tbird itself.<BR>
><BR>
>And Tbird is a clone of Eudora, or so I thought when I first testdrived<BR>
>it. My experiences with Eudora and its mbx and toc-files really didn't<BR>
>make me happy. As Tbird uses the same setup, is it also vulnerable in<BR>
>the same way as Eudora? Ie is it also sensitive for the mailboxsizes as<BR>
>Eudora is?<BR>
<BR>
A single file ........... but it depends on two things: (i) how well the app manages the file. and (ii) whether some external event can get at it. It seems that nearly everybody writing MUAs is an out of work Unix hacker trained in Sendmail and maybe that's due to many of the new ones (MUAs) being designed for Linux where they'll fit right in with Sendmail or that horrible UW crap.<BR>
<BR>
I can't comment about Eudora size probs as I have no experience with it. I can say though that a planned retirement project is to write an MUA, probably in Python, after I see just waht happens when the Unix clocks overflow in January 2038. My latest OS (OpenBSD v 3.7) won't overflow the clock - feed it a high enough seconds count and it just stops incrementing so Time will stand still if they change nothing else and I'll never get to be 100!<BR>
But that has to be better than going 136 years into the past..........<BR>
Take care!<BR>
><BR>
>TIA.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
R/<BR>
<BR>
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<FONT FACE="Palatino Linotype" COLOR="#000001" SIZE="4" POINTSIZE="14" DEFAULT="ALL">
From the land "down under": Australia.<br>
Do we look <umop apisdn> from up over?<br>
<br>
Rod/<br>
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