The Great "Hard Return" Debate

[Alexander Sarras]

On Thu, 4 Nov 1999 20:19:32 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

> Thursday, November 04, 1999, 7:38:37 PM, Ralph wrote:
> > I believe that the proper role of a mail program includes writing
> > messages as well as reading them.
> 
>     Writing a message is editing text.
> 
> > don't expect the editor to have the macros, hex editing and highlighting
> > functions that are included in some of my other text editors, nor do I
> > expect the PMMail message viewer to properly display MSWord or other
> > specially formatted documents.
> 
>     Funny, I rather like the highlighting that vim provides for mail and news.
>  It does not, however, display other specially formatted documents or does hex
> editing.  It is a text editor, nothing more.
> 
> > I find it equally odd that some people find it preferable to use two or
> > three different programs to perform functions which should be appropriately
> > be performed within a single program.
> 
>     Really?  How many editors do you use?  How many times have you been in one
> editor and fumble on a key sequence of another?  How many times have you
> wished the functions of one editor were in the other?  How about any other
> feature in every other program?  Don't you wish you could use a different
> spell checker with PMMail since PMMail's sucks rocks?  Or, vice versa, if you
> think PMMail's kicks ass, don't you wish you could use it elsewhere?
> 
>     So now instead of using one editor you're going to go to three or four
> different authors and ask each of them to program the same thing three or four
> different times.  That is foolish.  The most efficient use of your time and
> energy and that of the various authors is to break the program down into the
> logical component pieces and only do one, define communication with the rest,
> and let you decide what is best for *YOU*.
> 
>     Editing text is different than database work.  That is what a mail program
> is.  So the transport of said mail and the maintenance of it is up to the mail
> program.  So transport (SMTP, POP, IMAP, APOP, etc), filtering, management of
> the database and viewing all fall under the MUA.
> 
>     Since email is just text that falls into the text editor domain.  Just
> like a text editor would suck as an MUA or a spell checker.  Two completely
> different tasks.
> 
>     But I mentioned spell checking for a reason.  It is a completely different
> task than editing text.  So putting a spell checker into a text editor is a
> bad idea.  Just as it is a bad idea to put a text editor into a mail client.
> Just at it is a dumb idea to put a mail client into a web browser.  Just as it
> is dumb to put a web browser into an OS!
> 
>     PMMail is a kick ass mail client.  It needs a lot of work, however, *ON
> THE MAIL CLIENT.*  Not the editor, not the spell checker, *just* the client.
> By insisting that the authors work on tasks which are computationally
> unrelated to the client, you're asking them to spend time really programming
> three things.  A mail client, a text editor and a spell checker.  As a result,
> as has been stated time and again, when you slap things together like that the
> end result is less than if you took the components and got the best you could
> for each.
> 
>     PMMail is a good mail client.  It could be a lot better.  If it were it
> would be the best.
> 
>     vim is a kick ass text editor.  *NO* mail editor will ever come up to the
> standard set by vim when it comes to editing mail.  Why?  Mail is text and vim
> excels at editing text.  That is all it does.  That is all it needs to do.
> 
>     aspell is a kick ass spell checker.  *NO* mail editor will ever come up to
> the standard set by aspell when it comes to spell checking.  Why?  Spell
> checking is basically several very complex search and replace algorithms.
> aspell excels at it.  That is all it does.  That is all it needs to do.
> 
>     So, there you are, kicking and screaming that PMMail's editor should have
> a decent reflow for quotes.  I'm sitting here, laughing.  PMMail does.  vim.
> When I use mutt, mutt has it.  vim.  When I use slrn, slrn has it.  vim.
> 
>     And while other people are cursing PMMail's spell checker I'm sitting here
> laughing.  It has a good one.  aspell.  When I use mutt, mutt has it.  aspell.
> When I use slrn, slrn has one.  aspell.  When I just write poetry or stories,
> my editor there has it.  aspell.
> 
>     Also, because vim has context highlighting for different programming
> languages it is a simple deal to have it use those facilities to have context
> highlighting for mail and news.
> 
>     Now here is the important part, Ralph.  Say someone comes along with a
> kick ass email client that does everything I want.  It does multiple accounts
> perfectly, awesome filtering, IMAP/POP/SMTP all there, etc, etc, etc.  But...
> its editor sucks and it has no spell checking.  All I have to do is ask the
> author to program in a hook for an external editor which, I'm sure you agree,
> is much easier than programming a kick ass editor and a kick ass spell checker
> on top of a kick ass mail client, guess what.
> 
>     It has a kick ass mail editor.  vim.  It has a kick ass spell checker.
> aspell.  I lose nothing.  Meanwhile, there you would be, kicking and
> screaming, trying to get him to implement those features all over again.
> 
>     If you don't understand after that, nothing will get you to understand
> because you are too used to mediocrity in all things you do that you won't
> grasp this very basic and simple concept.  You'd rather fight each author for
> the same things over and over and OVER instead of being able to take it all
> with you.
> 
With all that ass-kicking, doesn't your butt start to hurt a little? How do
you sit down ;-> ?

I think it really wouldn't hurt anyone if PMMails internal editor would be
improved a lil' bit. Also the reflow at send option needs an overhaul.
Then, if there'd be a hook for an external spellchecker also, pgp-support
improved, and IMAP added, we _really_ could start some serious ass-kicking.
Currently you'D have to livelier than a one-legged guy at a butt-kicking
contest to get all perfectly done.

Sorry, couldn't resist (well, maybe I could, but didn't want to)
SaS
-- 
  Alexander.Sarras@ap.univie.ac.at  |     * Trouble * IS my middle name!
                                    |           The TroubleShooter
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