Java Performance/Python etc

[Simon Bowring]

>I seriously doubt it is as impressive as what the Python community has put
>together.
I deliberately said "standard library" i.e. functions that are 
guaranteed to be present and work in a defined way on all 
implementaions.  Having consulted our python guru (cos I'm not one), 
I still maintain Java has no peers in this area - whether you doubt 
it or not! Agreed, you'll find features missing, but no other 
languages have such a rich standard library!

>Of all the languages I looked at only Python had me staring at the
>standard references thinking that I really could write a mail client.
Fair enough!

>Of course, as I said, Java has two serious dings against it that will
>never be erased and never, ever voted out.  I staunchly refuse to even
>consider any language which forces people to learn a whole new set of terms
>for concepts already defined.  
>That smacks of marketing.

Most (OO) languages introduce their own terms for things, certainly 
including C++ (what used to be called a "method", is a "member 
function" in C++), and Java is no worse than the others for 
"terminology" IMO.  If you know C++, what does "static" mean, and how
many languages share this definition (Answer to the second portion: 0).

BTW: What new terms are you thinking of, possibly "inner class" is 
new, but then I know of no other languages which possess inner classes,
so fair enough!

>The second is that it is controlled by a commercial entity and, as 
>such, is subject to changes at the whim of that entities marketing 
>and legal departments and whatever suits happen to be in control at 
>the moment.  After having seen what suits can dream up not only in 
>other companies but my own that is an unacceptable position for a 
>language to be in.

Fair enough. I do understand your concerns and share them but
to a lesser extent - however I think that Sun has every right to 
behave this way and generate revenue from its impressive "invention".

IBM has almost bet it's business on Java, and I'd of thought they'd 
be very vulnerable if your concerns are that "real".  BTW: the 
European Digital TV bodies have standardised on Java for the 
"applications language" for set-top boxes and digital TV precisely 
because there are 2nd sources for JVMs (from HP and other smaller 
vendors) which are not subject to any of Sun's IP rights - these
bodies rejected MS's submission on the basis that they refused to 
be at the beck and call of a single supplier.

>> But if the JVM and libraries were already loaded it would have been much
>> faster! It's a bit like having to start Windows on an OS/2 box when you
>> run a windows program.
>    No, you missed the point.  It took 1 minute for it to load.  That is
>unacceptable, period.  Perl and Python both can spew out hello world in all
>its infinite glory in under a second.
Whatever Steve! It is possible to have implementaions where it wouldn't
take a minute, as I described!

>> In web application servers (where the JVM etc is already loaded), Java
>> servlettes blow the pants off all other forms of CGI (in terms of
>> performance)!
>
>    I seriously doubt that.  It has stiff competition in PHP alone.
I have the misfortune to have to produce web apps using PHP (3 not
4 which may have improved) and Java, and PHP is not close to being 
"performant", though it's much more sutable for small quick-hack type
apps, Java is more suitable for large "formal" ones. I also 
understand *why* Java's dynamic compilation often delivers 
performance on web servers far in excess of native C++ compilers, 
but hey if you think interpretted PHP is faster, go run some tests 
or read some books! [I hope your other comments were better "informed" 
than this one!].

>Hopefully that hell will never happen in my lifetime.  
If it happens, it won't be a hell! If it remains a hell Java
won't happen (on the desktop)!

>Maybe if Jave were truly open and of the community I'd agree.  But it 
>is not nor will it ever be in the future.
Wow! Ok Steve, whatever you say - can I borrow your time machine
sometime? (Java was *nearly* opened up in the past, and it may 
well be opened in the future - though possibly only "portions" 
of it)!

Simon